The Origin of Species

[marko]

an extremely interesting discussion on the origin of life on earth is happening on a thread dedicated to accents, i was thinking it's definately worth a poll and a thread of it's own.

Creationism should be taken to mean that a consious entity created humans as they are, and placed them upon the Earth.

Evolution should be taken to mean that there was no consious creator at all,

Steered Evolution (i can't remember the correst name for this) covers all beliefs such as an entity starting the whole thing off and sitting back and watching (Deism i think) or an entity physically choosing the outcome of evolution to work towards a goal, etc.

[akhilis2cool]

I voted for evolution.

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

I would like a choice which said ,somewhere between evolution and steered evolution.

Coz i still do not know where the 'Big Bang' took place.



( now i think people will get going on the 'big bang':))

[marko]

I would like a choice which said ,somewhere between evolution and steered evolution.
Coz i still do not know where the 'Big Bang' took place.

( now i think people will get going on the 'big bang':))

i was about to say start a new thread, but i guess that's relevent here. however really there was a hell of a lot of time between the big bang and any interesting biology

[marko]

I would like a choice which said ,somewhere between evolution and steered evolution.
Coz i still do not know where the 'Big Bang' took place.

( now i think people will get going on the 'big bang':))

ok i just reread that. Where the big bang took place? since since before the big bang there was no space (therefore no time) the big bang happened everywhere, imagine the universe as a tiny spec expanding at an infinately fast rate. in fact, my use of the word "before" at the start of that sentence makes no sense, as there is no "before" the big bang.



the mind has difficulty with becomings, that is why things like abortion, death, and the legal age to vote are such problems for us. we end up drawing a line (for legal reasons) when there is no line to be drawn.

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

Well even if everything was accounted for after the Big Bang, one question still remains.

Where did the 'Big Bang' happen?



( i am surprised that CAD hasnt yet said something about the 'big bang', i am sure he knows:))afterall he isnt 'god' for nothing.

[CtrlAltDel]

i voted "Evolution" like a rational person...



do u know that even today many Americans, esp in the Bible Belt dont believe in evolution and subscribe to the Adam n Eve theory...



in the 1920s there was the famous Ape Trials in a state in the US (kentuky i think). at that time the state had banned the teaching of Darwin's evolution theory in schools and promoted the Biblical theory. a school teacher defied the ban and was tried in a widely publicised case. unfortunately he lost



i think the degeneration of American mind, started early last century!!!





...and the Big Bang? what do u want me to say about it?

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

i think the degeneration of American mind, started early last century!!!


...and the Big Bang? what do u want me to say about it?

> And since you believe in evolution , the degeneration of the american mind isnt going to stop just yet.. Bush wins again.



About the 'Big Bang', i was expecting your 'dirty' mind to take over.



Back to the topic, people still believe in the bibilical stories becoz science hasnt been able to answer most questions in a simple way.

For example, how many of us would understand the concept of 'time-space-evolution' link?

Till we get simpler answers to answer the simple folk, we will be stuck with the adam & eve concept..

[akhilis2cool]

Well even if everything was accounted for after the Big Bang, one question still remains.
Where did the 'Big Bang' happen?

*Smells the sir around him*

Not in my tummy

[marko]

well as for where the big bang happened, might as well ask where is the universe. the only two answers that are credable are "everywhere" and "nowhere".



As for evolution, it's a very simple concept to understand (and to misunderstand if fed the wrong information), in the time it takes you to read Genesis you could have covered evolution quite well.



The reason isn't the difficulty of understanding, it comes back to the minds trouble with becomings. How did inert matter give rise to life? When did chemistry become biology? as it happened over 4 billion years ago (i could be well wrong on that, can't really remember) there's no way we'll ever be certain. there are lots of ways that are conceivable, and interesting, and the primordial soup one is only one of many theorys proposed. but unless we ever manage to recreate the conditions in a lab (won't happen in our lifetime IMO) then it'll remain inconclusive.



Many people would prefer to simply trust in the biblical verson, rather than risk the uncertainty.

[akhilis2cool]

I saw a prog. on discovery...where they showed some hot water springs in NZ ....they said the bacteria found over there are as old as the earth itself.

[malakpetmasala]

this is the best topic on the Db since SS was talking about bondage.

anyway, about what we are talking in here, i think its way too complex with too many suppositions and too many overlapping conclusions which i ll post as soon as i get back home, i am late for my bus already.

but

[marko]

I saw a prog. on discovery...where they showed some hot water springs in NZ ....they said the bacteria found over there are as old as the earth itself.

can you find anything on the internet related to this? that'd be a big problem for everyone to explain. of course the creationists could state that God put them there to test us, but they'd say pretty much anything.

[~akidna~]

i think that fatboy slim video...right here right now says it all....

lol

we r all eventually gona become fat good for nuttin slobs who spend time written on forums....



evolution gets my vote

[Sharjeel]

I don't subscribe to Evolution Theory. It has too many holes.



I want to believe in it but being a rational person, I do not have enough proof of what the scientists say.

[akhilis2cool]

I saw a prog. on discovery...where they showed some <a href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=11&k=hot%20water" onmouseover="window.status='hot water'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">hot water</a> springs in NZ ....they said the bacteria found over there are as old as the earth itself.

can you find anything on the internet related to this? that'd be a big problem for everyone to explain. of course the creationists could state that God put them there to test us, but they'd say pretty much anything.

cldnt. find nething on the net ....

[marko]

I don't subscribe to Evolution Theory. It has too many holes.

I want to believe in it but being a rational person, I do not have enough proof of what the scientists say.

holes?

[CtrlAltDel]

I don't subscribe to Evolution Theory. It has too many holes.

what's the theory u believe in?

[Sharjeel]

Evolution Theory word-per-word is full of loose threads.



Science can only observe upto a certain stage, after which it runs out of anwers. Then some more research is done and they go a lil' bit farther, then stop again. My Science teacher once told me that in the end there will Forever be a point beyond which science cannot go, and after that point, there is God.



God created us Humans and he 'engineered' his creation so that it conformed to a certain set of rules. Ths is what we have come to call as Physics/Chemistry/etc.

[malakpetmasala]

back to th origin of species.

i was a totoal believer till i stsrted questioning my belief, well, life around me and the way i was, am living. Being born into a vaishnavite brahmin family, i wa told that it is god that brought us into this world and there is for sure a reason for existance for me to be here and one day or over the ages, the reason for my excistance will come, independent of me noticicing it.

but then later i tried to influence myself too much with excessive scientific though which made me hard to believe that we are here for a reason and so is every grain of sand, so gave up on my hindu thought and took to what science taught me...... know my surroundings better there by knowing my inner self. as a part of this, i totally believed in what darwin told.. the theory of evolution and environmental influence. it is all true, there is no doubt about this, there sis no doubt about the fact that we have all evolved from a single celled ancestor and environment has modified us to suit it over the ages.

but then i questioned... Y? why do we have to change and why does environment has to change us to somethig we were not yesterday? but then again, we are a part of this environment and so we are changing ourselves .. dont know if it is for the better or worse, even worse, or still unanswered is for whose cause. certainly not for our cause, i can assure of it.

and human evolution from the ape cousins is so drastic, none of the other living beings on our planet have changed so drastically as us humans and the existing scientific facts have made it really hard for me to believe that it is possible without alien interference, may be i ll sound like a mainic to u guys with the whole alien talk, but thats the closest conclusion i could come up with to explain the drastic human evolution. it is certainly impossible to have the changes we have, the brain we have compared to our closest cousins given the short time of evolution. these aliens in my sense are what we consider Gods... and there is mention of thses guys in any given culture, be it the middle eastern religions or the indian religion, i just dontnderestand importance of the gods to be on the mountain tops, remember.... mohammed went onto a mountain to get his enlightenment, moses got the 10 commandements on a mountain, jesus went away into the himalayas in the 10 years of his dissappearance, shive resides on mount kailash and the gods of the greeks on mt olympus. dont u think there is something common top all these faiths? also, all the pyramids face a certain galaxy, the ones found in burma, egypt and latin america, they all point thye same galaxy

i do find a common thing in all this. maybe i am a freak, but there has to be a common thing.



the other thing which speculates me is DNA, being a scientist trying to unravel the mysteries of the human mind gives makes sme think about the DNA and how it is using us for its own benefit.

more on this later.....

[marko]

God created us Humans and he 'engineered' his creation so that it conformed to a certain set of rules. Ths is what we have come to call as Physics/Chemistry/etc.

there is 0 proof of this. there is strong evidence behind evolutionary theory, you are right in that we may never know with 100% certainty, however evolution is a far stronger concept than you may think.

I think that the world as we know it can be expressed as follows.

Physics + Chemistry + Biology + God = Reality



500 years ago, we knew a little of physics, not much of biology, and very little chemistry, the God component was high.

With evolutionary theory, the God component shrinks to practicaly nothing.

If someone 500 years ago said they were an athiest, i'd have said they were a damn fool. now however, it is perfectly possible to be an athiest, and to be able to give a reasonable answer to any question about the natural world without falling back to God.



I'm not saying the concept of God is obsolete, there is still, and will probably always be a strong sociological need for God for preservation of moral values, as a method of preserving culture, to preserve a healthy belief in the afterlife, etc. But we no longer need to use Him as an explanation for things in the physical universe.

[malakpetmasala]

but then again, the question that remains is as to who crreated these "aliens"? and ofcourse the universe of which they and are a part of?

too many questions.. too few answers... opr reasons....

one thing i have realised from my knowledghe of the koran and the other story books, the best of which is the genesis says that he is the believer who questions his belief, hinduism also says this in a different way. And yeah... i suggest all the hardcore religious guys here and elsewhere to think of it. try not to blindly believe whatever is said, just try to rationalise it and think about it, question it to urself before u actually believe it. It helps.



i guess we lose the meaning of evolution, he essence of having a brain that can think and question if we were to blindly believe things without reasoning them, just cos some one _ claiming to be prophet told us what to do and what not to do.

[CtrlAltDel]

I'm not saying the concept of God is obsolete, there is still, and will probably always be a strong sociological need for God for preservation of moral values, as a method of preserving culture, to preserve a healthy belief in the afterlife, etc. But we no longer need to use Him as an explanation for things in the physical universe.

very well put marko...!



and even when u wade thru what malakie has written, that makes sense too!



i have always had the idea that the concept of God was how the primitive humans saw the aliens who might have descended from outerspace. Malakie's comment on the significance of mountains in mythology also points towards this.



abt evolution from apes to current humans, i dont agree that only the humans seem to have evolved drastically. most of the animals or plants we see today have evolved to perfectly mesh in with the environment. everything form size of the living beings to their shape, structure, anatomy, as compared to fossiled remains point out the truth of the theory of evolution.



being religious is one thing, but seriously applying to everything we see or do is to take it a bit too far...

[malakpetmasala]

but then again, the question that remains is as to who crreated these "aliens"? and ofcourse the universe of which they and are a part of?

too many questions.. too few answers... opr reasons....

one thing i have realised from my knowledghe of the koran and the other story books, the best of which is the genesis says that he is the believer who questions his belief, hinduism also says this in a different way. And yeah... i suggest all the hardcore religious guys here and elsewhere to think of it. try not to blindly believe whatever is said, just try to rationalise it and think about it, question it to urself before u actually believe it. It helps.



i guess we lose the meaning of evolution, he essence of having a brain that can think and question if we were to blindly believe things without reasoning them, just cos some one _ claiming to be prophet told us what to do and what not to do.

[akhilis2cool]

lagta hai masala bhai kuch zyada hi seriously sonchre....ek ich post d baar