Hinduism for n00bs

[Guru HP]

I've already quoted the hindu scriptures and according to that its clear that nothing else should be associated with the only god

That, my friend, is somewhat debatable. God is all-pervading. So, everything is associated with Him. If you meant that God is one and only one and he has no equal or substitute, yes...I'll agree with you. And nowhere did my explanation of the shloka you quoted contravenes this. Please try and analyse this once more.

Almost everyone today has rented out his conscience to various demi-gods. Starting from the deities, , the list of these demi-gods swallows a lot of names like the Modis and Togodias, your family and community elders, the "society", your neighbourhood and office gossip machine, your boss, your friends and in some sorry cases, even your dhobi and naee.

And it is worshipping these demi-gods (following them with a herd mentality) that Krishna cautions against in the quoted shloka. Does the fact that some people choose to ignore the true God and follow others raise the status of those being followed to bring it on level with the Almighty? Or does it lower His stature?

what you write is simply your belief but its been written no-where in any of your holy books

I've mentioned earlier too that no holy scripture of hinduism has ever written what's right and what's wrong. They just tell you the science & philosophy of life. Right and wrong are concepts left to an individual's conscience.

its also been stated in the yajurveda 40:9 that those who worship the natural elements take thmselves towards the darkness

True...Those who give in completely to natural elements are doomed to darkness (Maya or the illusions of the material world). In my first post in this thread, I tried to explain the reason behind the pantheon. The Vedas describe the Devatas as a class of living beings who are responsible for the natural forces. They are on par hierarchially with humans. And they are, in a way, on a lower spiritual plane as compared to humans as humans have a scope for spiritual progression, which the Devatas do not. They are bound to their duty and can't attain an elevation.

Now, as I wrote in the last post, man has, over the time, rented out his conscience to a whole lot of entities other than God. And these dieties are a part of the list. I do agree that giving them a place equivalent to God is wrong. But again, how many of us know the true nature of God to equate anyone with him? So, the ones you accuse of equating these dieties with God are actually guilty of mistaking these dieties for God. I hope you can appreciate the difference between the two things. And this is the same thing as completely giving in to your parents and relatives on the question of your marriage or listening only to your teacher and no one or nothing else with respect to your studies.

Coming to idol worship, as I said earlier, there is nothing wrong in worshipping idols as symbols of the Almighty. Islam venerates the number 786 and the crescent moon. Aren't they symbolic of the divine? Whatever wrong exists in the practices of today, exists on a much lower level, at the level of one's understanding of who or what God is.

what basis the people of hinduism pioneer the worshipping of demi-god....

Well...I can give you an insight into how these practices came to the fore. As I said, hinduism derives itself from a pagan religion, where the forces of nature are revered. And the Vedas themselves are full of invocations of natural forces. Somehow, this reverence for the natural forces has turned into worship. There is a complex web of reasons for this and that's something beyond the scope of this thread. So some other time.

You know that air exists n for that you dont keep a huge box in your house labelled "AIR" on it and go breath from there everyday or carry a similar box along with u always...so like you believe that air does exist if you have faith in the only god then you simply have to understand the existance of the almighty but not make him into diff forms n pray.... what say??

All I can say is that you are trivialising God by comparing Him with air. Every Tom, _ and Harry in the world knows what air is; knows what to do with it and how to breathe it. How many people know what God is? Forget knowing, how many people even believe in God? Accept the fact that not everyone is spiritually as elevated as the authors of sacred works like Vedas, Gita and The Quran. And you cannot expect a normal human being to jump the long ladder of spirituality in one single go. True understanding of God is the ultimate aim for each soul. And I can bet none of us around, or for that matter, hardly anyone walking the surface of the earth today has a complete understanding of Him.



Going by your logic, giving God a name is also wrong as that too binds him. We all call him Ishwar, Allah and God as per our convenience, don't we? I again repeat, do not go by the literal translation of the sacred texts. See everything in the larger context of life and things around you. When you do so, you will realise that each sacred text says the same thing.

[vakibs]

Very well said HP. We should look at a book in the context of the life and things around. At the basic sense of meaning, all of them say the same thing !

[CtrlAltDel]

i wish i had time to post here earlier but was too caught up with work. and good thing this thread has come back on track inspite of some efforts to derail.



i often give a tech-oriented explanation of the hindu philosophy on god etc (mainly coz my circle consists mostly of techies).



I call hinduism an "Object Oriented" Methodology of living (i wont go into an explanation of the OO concept here). There is a Base Class God called "Brahman" (not to be confused with the "brahmin" caste) who doesnt have any GUI properties, ie, a form. some hindu sects call it Shakti (energy), the Supreme Female (again, no form, just a female 'force').



The people are free to adapt the Base Class God with the inherited properties and create any "sub-class" of God. This sub class can have added properties like "Form", "Gender", "Name", "Appearance" etc. it is left to each "hindu" to adapt a form he or she likes and consider it a God. That has now resulted in 3 crore God sub-classes, sub-sub-classes etc at last count



this also gave a hindu the right to be an Atheist and declare the Base Class as Null no one can punish a hindu for not believing in God or in any particular version of God.



This is exactly why all the other religions found space to flourish in India since ancient times. the local hindus simply considered the Gods of the new religion as other 'Sub Classes' and did not feel threatened in anyway. the new religious philosophies were simply assimilated and accepted.



because of this inherent belief, no true hindu can be a "fanatic". "Fanatic Fundamentalist Hindu" is an oxymoron. the "Hindu Fundamentalist" was born only on two occassions:



(1) in the BC era When atheistic Buddhism was gaining ground. but this was also assimilated into hinduism by declaring Buddha as the 9th Incarnation of Vishnu.



and



(2) in the early twentieth century in response to the call for creating pakistan. this has now grown into a monster, but bcause of the inherent "tolerence" factor in majority of hindus, it is difficult for this monster to occupy center stage and gain acceptance by the majority.



i will go as far as to say that non hindus in india enjoy all rights and are equal citizens only because the majority of the hindus are genetically tolerant.

[Guru HP]

In my last post, I'd mentioned about the reasons why so many dieties exist in the hindu culture. I'd touched upon the existence of an organisational structure in place. I'd mentioned the top management (the triumvirate of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva) and the middle level management (dieties). In my next post, I'll touch upon the two vital cogs in the structure I didn't mention the last time around. The entry level workforce (Humans) and the CEO (God).

Here's the post I talked about. ANd I hope this will take the derailed thread back on track. And I request everyone to ignore creeps like sudakar. We can then just request the mods to delete their posts. Let this thread be what it was actually supposed to be. Now, the explanation of the structure.



A bare-basic organisational structure would look somehow like this.



CEO

|

|

Vice-Presidents

|

|

Managers

|

|

Entry level workforce



The same structure also applies to the concept of God as per hinduism. It'll look somewhat like this.



God

|

|

Triumvirate of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva

|

|

Devatas

|

|

Humans



The only difference here being that in the corporate organisation structure, the progression of an employee goes up along the ladder whereas in the structure vis-a-vis the concept of God in Hinduism, the two middle rungs are stagnant. There's no scope for promotion for rungs 2 & 3. Rung 4 (humans) though can graduate directly to Rung 1 (God) once their process of self-realisation is complete. Though many people will find this in contravention of the principle of one God, it's not really so. I'll give an explanation for that once I finish explaining the structure.



The rung 4 workforce (humans) are divided into 4 classes on the basis of their spiritual evolution stage. Though these classes are viewed on the basis of a person's birth today, the Gita never says so. The corruption of this can be attributed to Manu, who proclaimed that these classes would be on the basis of the individual's occupation. From that point onwards, the concept got corrupted further and it has come to the point of the classes being determined by birth. I've mentioned this numerous times earlier and I'll say it again. The 4 classes are...



Shudra : One who is still immersed in maya and has no other meaning to life except for personal pleasures that don't improve the self.



Vaishya : One who is involved in creative pursuits to enhance his intellect as well as contribute positively to society.



Kshatriya : One who is battling his senses to attain a higher spiritual level.



Brahmin : One who is truly aware of the his self and the supreme being.



A human being follows a path of spiritual evolution from being a Shudra to being a Brahmin. WRT the debate on worshipping demi-gods (read the long list I gave for that), let me put it here that the ones who do rent out their conscience to the demi-gods are Shudras. Their souls will learn over a period of time and with cause (karma) and effect (the result of karma) that their salvation lies elsewhere (with God) and will improve over a period of time.



Now, to the question of how can I say there is one God and at the same time claim that a human soul can get elevated to the status of God through good karma and following the path of virtue. You have to dwelve a bit into the concept of a soul here. For that, I'd request you to go through this thread once. It has a whole lot of info on the subject.



The soul is anti-matter just like God. As per the Advaita theory, the universe is a thought of God. And just like you cannot differentiate between you and your thought, the soul and God are also indistinguishable from one another. Once a soul understands its true self (sees it in a light devoid of the darkness of Maya), it realises it's not different from God. Thus, the concept of the soul attaining salvation.



Next post, I'll talk about the concepts of heaven and hell as they would be the next in a logical order. If you guys want to discuss some other concept of hinduism, please do let me know.

[Reality]

RELIGION IS SO OVERRATED.

[Truth]

What does Hinduism have to say about the Hindu fundamentalists belonging to RSS VHP ,who went out in hordes ,who have this mob mentality of stone ages, who did the genocide in Gujarat and killed and burnt thousands of Muslims , what does it have to say about Modi the architect of the genocide of Muslims in Gujarat and the continued opression of the muslim and the christian minorities, what does it have to say about the murderer of Gandhi Godse, what does it have to say about fundamentalist organizations like RSS VHP etc..any one has any answers...



Hindu hardline Fundamentalists please stay away , I know one side of your brain is all fried to be able to expect answers of reason and logic from you , also Hindu fundamentalists dont come up with nicks like learned_scholar and ChodakarChopra to hijack the discussion its a very obvious ploy of the Hindu fundamnetalists on the boards I think everyone can see thru it now ..

[Reality]

What does Hinduism have to say about the Hindu fundamentalists belonging to RSS VHP ,who went out in hordes ,who have this mob mentality of stone ages, who did the genocide in Gujarat and killed and burnt thousands of Muslims , what does it have to say about Modi the architect of the genocide of Muslims in Gujarat and the continued opression of the muslim and the christian minorities, what does it have to say about the murderer of Gandhi Godse, what does it have to say about fundamentalist organizations like RSS VHP etc..any one has any answers...

Well Hinduism does not say anything about anybody personally just like islam or christianity.

Every dumbass who thinks his religion is better than the others is a borderline fanatic who just waits for a chance to cause even more harm than just ideological opposition.

In my view every religion has its great values and so too its faults. but what we have to also notice and acknowledge is the context in which they were written. so our interpretations should be fluid.

And finally if every person respects the other as human being irrespective of race, nationality, culture or religion we will have no problem at all.

[DQ]

What is the status of Women in Hinduism ?



What does it say about Widow Remarriage, Is a Brahmin Women and a Sudra the same.



Can a Brahmin marry any body?



Women in Hinduism. Lets study.....

[Reality]

What is the status of Women in Hinduism ?

What does it say about Widow Remarriage, Is a Brahmin Women and a Sudra the same.

Can a Brahmin marry any body?

Women in Hinduism. Lets study.....

well I agree that there is a lot rotten with hinduism , but we are not concerned with that. The reason being those things do not affect me. But if my property gets destroyed bcoz of some cartoons in denmark, that will make think of the people doing that and their beliefs and then the other things come in.

[Reality]

Are we on a game of one upmanship on this thread?

[CtrlAltDel]

What is the status of Women in Hinduism ?

What does it say about Widow Remarriage, Is a Brahmin Women and a Sudra the same.

Can a Brahmin marry any body?

Women in Hinduism. Lets study.....

aah! DQ! i missed u!



vedic hinduism makes no distinction between men and women. it has widow remarriage, no casteism as it exists today etc. (read HP's posts).



the vedic religion got corrupted from the era of Manu ie from about last 1000 years (considering that hinduism has been around since about 5000 years, this is a relatively short time period). the corrupted versions became sort of societal rules and various social evils came about.



but u shud see one thing today. all the negatives have been recognized and the modern law has taken responsibility to correct the 'bugs' that have crept in. no hindu has protested that these laws are 'anti-hindu'. no one has declared a prize on the heads of social reformers who went against the social mores of their day (they were revered instead).



have u heard of the Arya Samaj? they are a popular sect that follow pure vedic hinduism (also more popular for marrying off lovers who face parental opposition esp due to caste reasons ). they reject casteism, idolatory etc and worship the formless God thru a holy fire (havan. if u read the Arya Samaj's rules for hinduism (as per Vedas), u will see how fwd thinking and how liberal the rules are.

[DQ]

Hmm so the Social evils came about with or without protests?





Vedic got corrupted from the era of Manu, hmm so this era of Manu just bought in these social evils and no one spoke against them ?



"bugs" so you accept that current adherents follow the "bugged version", [and have been practising atleast for the past 1000 years]

- now who has recognised these bugs,

- what are they specifically

- and how are they going to be eliminated.



Will it again be without critical thinking ?



What assurance that this "evolution" will be "bug" free, that it will not inculcate larger "bugs" that maybe prevelant today as norm but later turn out to be monsters.



Like I remember a few years back yourself or HP explained that caste were bought into just classify, may have been the need of the hour then but has turned into a an evil monster today. Millions have and continue to suffer the effects of this "de bugging" done 1000s of years back.



Now todays "debugging:" process that you talk about is it for the good or greater evil?



Well you have gleefully avoided the Womens right topic.



Women rights through Vedic Hinduism, can you explain.



Some textual resources that I can refer so that I truly understand waht the religion talks about and what the "bugged" adherents are practising?



Cause the "bugged version" being practised is tooo gory, discrimination by caste,Sati,Dowry,Devdasi,Widow Pariah (cannot and should not attend celebrations).



Refer Kaamwali Blog, will write a small story on "Widows in India."

[HP again]

Well Hinduism does not say anything about anybody personally just like islam or christianity.
Every dumbass who thinks his religion is better than the others is a borderline fanatic who just waits for a chance to cause even more harm than just ideological opposition.
In my view every religion has its great values and so too its faults. but what we have to also notice and acknowledge is the context in which they were written. so our interpretations should be fluid.
And finally if every person respects the other as human being irrespective of race, nationality, culture or religion we will have no problem at all.

You hit the nail on the head Reality.

Hmm so the Social evils came about with or without protests?

Vedic got corrupted from the era of Manu, hmm so this era of Manu just bought in these social evils and no one spoke against them ?

There's no recorded narrative about how citizens under Manu's rule took this change. Whether there was any protest or not. The rules were imposed upon the people by a ruler not as a change in the religion but as a constitution of a state. So it had more of political overtones rather than theological ones. So you cannot completely term this as a corruption of the religion. The corruption happened gradually as this constitution (a manuscript called Manusmriti, which you, DQ, are well aware of) slowly started being recognised as a religious edict. A large part of the blame for this rests with the clerics (wrongfully honoured with the title of Brahmin by Manu) started twisting religion according to their whims, fancies and convenience. You can draw parallels of this with the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran followed by the Shia clerics that rule the country.

"bugs" so you accept that current adherents follow the "bugged version", [and have been practising atleast for the past 1000 years]

Yes. Unfortunately, this bugged version is the socially more acceptable form of hinduism.

- now who has recognised these bugs,

There's no group or individual that has been given the power to judge others' actions as right or wrong beyond an opinion. So, whereas I can have an opinion for or against someone and voice it in a civil manner, I cannot force anyone to do something. So, its individuals within their own confines who have recognised these bugs and are trying to voice their concerns civilly, wherever possible (for example, on this forum). You would have seen umpteen times that there have been ill-informed fanatic outbursts from hindus on these boards and members here have voiced their opinions against them.

- what are they specifically

The list is long and beyond the scope of this topic. And there's no sense in listing everything and leaving it there. Also, discussing everything is beyond any practicality. So, if you have any specific concerns or issues you'd like to address, start focussed threads about them and we'll voice our opinions on the subject.

- and how are they going to be eliminated.

Will it again be without critical thinking ?

Follow what I wrote for the last question and these too would be addressed.

What assurance that this "evolution" will be "bug" free, that it will not inculcate larger "bugs" that maybe prevelant today as norm but later turn out to be monsters.

There's no learning without mistakes. And hinduism is all about self realisation and self-improvement. So, efforts to change are always encouraged. Just the fear that things may not end up as expected should not deter you from the very act of changing. Its something like not trying to learn cycling for the fear of falling off the cycle.

Now, as you say, there is a chance that what I do may not be right. But that should, in principle, affect only me. If others choose to get corrupted because of something that I concieve, they're more culpable than me as they listened to me without questioning my words. They have a choice of rejecting whatever I concieve or do. And they are free to follow me if they think I'm right.

A soul is accountable only for his own karma and not for others'. And everyone reaps whatever he sows. I hope that answered your question.

Now todays "debugging:" process that you talk about is it for the good or greater evil?

That again is upon an individual's conscience. He can choose to do something for his own good or something for his own evil. Remember...its only for his own good or his own evil. You may see this as a paradox in the light of Gujarat and Iraq etc. But you have to see the bigger picture and not just one incident in isolation. This is a somewhat difficult concept to explain through a one way communication such as this. So you can pm me; we'll fix up some time and meet on IM so that I can explain how IMO, the paradox is just an illusion.

Women rights through Vedic Hinduism, can you explain.

Some textual resources that I can refer so that I truly understand waht the religion talks about and what the "bugged" adherents are practising?

I'll answer this by tomorrow. I do need to research this a bit and will get you some links you can refer to.

[CtrlAltDel]

damn...i wish i replied first...u said most of what i want to say, but not in the crude way i wanted to





a simple question to DQ....u claim Quran gives an equal status to muslim women unlike many other major religions, but why are those rights withheld from women almost everywhere quranic law is applied? tell me which muslim majority state (apart from secular turkey and fwd looking Malaysia) guarantees full rights to women as in quran? why is the practice diferent from the theory?



the answers to your questions is somewhat similar to the answers to these.



and plese donot go into a lecture on 'similar', 'equal' and all that...its all theory which is not being implemented anyway.

[DQ]

Hinduism for N00bs



- and CAD wants references from Quran

- and he would reply in a crude way tch tch, so much for evolution.

One simple query and Blah bloom tah.



- and people this of someone who """Claim""" there need not be any reaction to to derogation.



A simple query to genuinely understand "Women rights through Vedic Hinduism" and he goes.



Given the days of research taken do I consider this closed ?



Please can this be the pin up of this Discussion so that its not mellowed in future



"Yes. Unfortunately, this bugged version is the socially more acceptable form of hinduism. "



There still is no conclusive answer on the debugging process. and yes it has to be specific and objective, you cannot collectively pass it off as individual confines.



Modi in his individual confine feels that the nation should be etically cleansed. Now is there a tab in relegion that prevent him from doing so. What do the scriptures say. Who puts the tab in place ?

[CtrlAltDel]

i am not asking for references from the Quran. u are the last person i wud ask even if i wanted to.



my question is why most of the muslims are not following quran with respect to treatment of women, tho they seem to know the verses by heart and claim to follow Quran.



if u are able to answer this honestly, u will also get the answer to your question to me.

[DQ]

This thread is what.......Ah hmm oh



Hinduism for N00bs



so what do other relegions adherents and scriptures have to do with this ?



Come over this



"Well you have gleefully avoided the Womens right topic.



Women rights through Vedic Hinduism, can you explain.



Some textual resources that I can refer so that I truly understand waht the religion talks about and what the "bugged" adherents are practising?



Cause the "bugged version" being practised is tooo gory, discrimination by caste,Sati,Dowry,Devdasi,Widow Pariah (cannot and should not attend celebrations).



Refer Kaamwali Blog, will write a small story on "Widows in India.""

[samai]

This thread is what.......Ah hmm oh

Hinduism for N00bs

so what do other relegions adherents and scriptures have to do with this ?

Come over this

"Well you have gleefully avoided the Womens right topic.

Women rights through Vedic Hinduism, can you explain.

Some textual resources that I can refer so that I truly understand waht the religion talks about and what the "bugged" adherents are practising?

Cause the "bugged version" being practised is tooo gory, discrimination by caste,Sati,Dowry,Devdasi,Widow Pariah (cannot and should not attend celebrations).

Refer Kaamwali Blog, will write a small story on "Widows in India.""

Are you trying to say that only present day Hinduism practices discrimnation by caste (sunni/shia. catholics/protestants etc), dowry, devdasi, etc? the names that other religions use, if they have any names for such gory practices, are different, sir !



dont be so bi-ass-ed

[CtrlAltDel]

so what do other relegions adherents and scriptures have to do with this ?

:roll: if u are able to answer my question, u'll find that the answers u are seeking is similar, if not same.



as for resources, i am searching....but strangely googling for the state of women in ancient india is throwing up links to islamic sites...

[DQ]

Are you trying to say that only present day Hinduism practices discrimnation by caste (sunni/shia. catholics/protestants etc), dowry, devdasi, etc? the names that other religions use, if they have any names for such gory practices, are different, sir !

dont be so bi-ass-ed

1. Differentiate between Sect and caste. (Lower caste, upper caste) Incase you need help (Uch jaati, )

2. Well there is no implication or names there, if there is come up in some other thread.



This is purely Hinduism for N00bs, so lets only discuss that.



just to remind you not too be too CHAK-ASS-ED, I wanted this to be a pin up so that no one would again be CL-ASS-ED



"Yes. Unfortunately, this bugged version is the socially more acceptable form of hinduism. "



I truly dont want to start a mud slinging match here. Let this thread have soem real discussion you cant contribute Just PISS off.



And CAD , for a person who proposes restrain and evolution is it not taking things too personal on a geniune query. Will wait and lets discuss this openly.



As for applying critical thought hmm not too sure how open you are there.



Waiting on Womens rights in Vedic Hinduism.



I also wanted to find out What and who a SEER is ? If you can please clarify.



Now another glimmer to those who all these years have tried to Hush faith and Beleif.

RIG Veda - On faith.



"Faith in the early morning, Faith at noonday will we invocate,

Faith at the setting of the Sun. O Faith, endow us with belief"



Hmm, the only people I see invoking such faith are those who pray these many times a day every day. is it infact these who really beleive. Just another discussion after Womens rights, if any one is open for critical thinking.

[pingu]

RIG Veda - On faith.

"Faith in the early morning, Faith at noonday will we invocate,
Faith at the setting of the Sun. O Faith, endow us with belief"

Hmm, the only people I see invoking such faith are those who pray these many times a day every day. is it infact these who really beleive.

are you trying to imply that ppl who "invoke such faith" and those that "pray these many times a day" are actually following the vedas?

could it be that the people your refering to are just blindly following rituals that come from a more ancient(ergo better) system?

or could it be that you are saying that ultimately all religions pretty much ask the same thing from its followers? a steadfast faith ....a pacific belief.

pretty profound ....

[WTF??? HP]

Hinduism for N00bs

- and CAD wants references from Quran
- and he would reply in a crude way tch tch, so much for evolution.
One simple query and Blah bloom tah.

- and people this of someone who """Claim""" there need not be any reaction to to derogation.

And whats not surprising is your tendency to completely ignore something sensible that was there and jump on an angry reaction to your utterly biased diatribe. Tell me DQ....you couldn't think of a single comment on all your queries that I have answered?

A simple query to genuinely understand "Women rights through Vedic Hinduism" and he goes.

FYI my nitpicking fellow poster, there was a long post prior to that which you conveniently chose to ignore.

Given the days of research taken do I consider this closed ?

There are umpteen questions posed by me and by other posters on various threads, which you have not answered yet and we are still waiting. Never did we once say that we were considering the issue closed in our favour for your lack of response.

Now, I'm not a vedic scholar so I had to depend on external sources (the internet primarily) for any questions I had regarding the vedas. But, as CAD pointed out, trying to google it is directing me to islamic sites. And that's a point of view and not an original source I could quote.

But then, examples abound in history of women who can be the benchmark of how ancient and medieval India has treated women.

1. Fa Hien and Huein Tsang's chronicles state categorically that there was no distinction made on the basis of students' gender at Nalanda, the premier seat of learning in ancient India.

2. Customs like Swayamwar (a woman getting the choice to select her groom) were in vogue. This is completely against the present day belief of parents being the best judges of a woman's prospects.

3. Women rulers were quite common. Examples stretch right from the days of the Maurya dynasty to the modern Rani Lakshmibai and Kittoor Chennamma.

4. Panini (the father of sanskrit grammar) makes a clear distinction between acharya (masculine) and acharyani (feminine) as well as upadhyaya (masculine) and upadhyayini (feminine). There are chronicled evidences of women accepting the sacred thread and pursuing knowledge as their life's aim.

5. The Rig-Veda mentions a total of 400+ sages. Noteworthy is the fact that 21 of them are women.

6. The fact that all rivers are considered divine among hindus and all rivers having feminine names shows that women were revered in ancient times.

Manu's rule was a watershed in Indian history. He was a whimsical king who imposed his whims on one and sundry. And his being an MCP didn't really help the cause of women.

Please can this be the pin up of this Discussion so that its not mellowed in future

We're sensible enough not to let this mellow. We don't need confrontationist messages to show us the light.

"Yes. Unfortunately, this bugged version is the socially more acceptable form of hinduism. "

There still is no conclusive answer on the debugging process. and yes it has to be specific and objective, you cannot collectively pass it off as individual confines.

Okay. Since you suffer from a comprehension limitation, I'll give you the precis of my earlier answer in points. Here are the specific points for you.

There's no group or individual that has been given the power to judge others' actions as right or wrong beyond an opinion. So, whereas I can have an opinion for or against someone and voice it in a civil manner, I cannot force anyone to do something.

Its individuals within their own confines who have recognised these bugs and are trying to voice their concerns civilly, wherever possible (for example, on this forum). Some more examples are Raja Rammohan Roy, Swami Vivekananda, Swami Dayanand Saraswati, Annie Besant etc. They just went about doing whatever they felt was the right thing instead of forming committees, tabling reports and spending time on laborious researches.

Modi in his individual confine feels that the nation should be etically cleansed. Now is there a tab in relegion that prevent him from doing so. What do the scriptures say. Who puts the tab in place ?

Does the flaw lie with the religion that one of its purported followers indulges in sin? When Osama's actions are linked to Islam, there is a huge furore everywhere. Why are Modi's and Togadia's actions being ascribed to their "purported" hindu ideology?



As for the tab that you're looking for is concerned, it seems you did not understand the basic precept of hindu philosophy we've been discussing in numerous threads. Your Karma comes back to you. So do good deeds and reap good results. Bad deeds will get you nothing but bad results. How can one get simpler than that?

[DQ]

What happened to the few posts before this one.



Is this not the umpteenth time FHDb has categorically chosen to remove posts to highlight an ideology.

[DQ]

As for Mr WTF. No it still does not answer what the scriptures have to tell about Womens rights. Come back whenever you ahve completed your research and we will continue from there.



A suggestion, if you so strongly beleive in something work for it. Try to get those resources online so that others can have a look too.



Being googled into Islamic sites is not a satisfactory answer, when you have taken up to explain Hinduism for N00bs have your basics right.



Simple ah yeh so simple, explain everything else so simply dude.



Queries ignored, at every stage I have categorically answered each query, it was the stooges who still would want to beleive that nothing is answered why, have told a umpteen times you look through a ****ised prism, cant help it.



Dont come back like your fellow teetotallers, are bhai I am asking a question about "Womens rights through vedic scripts" and you come back with Quran says this and Osama does that.



See where you stand ?



Aka so bushy, why are you constipated, oh its osama! He he

[Hindu HP]

As for Mr WTF..............oh its osama! He he

[url]http://www.fullhyderabad.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=41904[/quote]





And is there someone else who has a question on hinduism? let's indulge in some critical thinking.[/url]