Walled off...

[CtrlAltDel]

ah! so Al Quaida is a "so called" on a technical point ...! i understand now!

[lonewolf]

Its like the "so called Rashtravadis" who call them selves rashtravadis, but go around carrying out anti national activities.

Its the same, "So called Al Qaida". There are many meaning to this term.

After all this you've explained about Al Qaeda, its obvious that you know Al Qaeda is a well established outfit whose presence and operations are acknowledged globally. Then why do you have to use the term "so called"?



The phrase "so called" is in a way sarcastic and denies or mocks the existence of the word that follows "so called".



How come you didn't say something like Congressman Tacredo's "so called" suggestion about bombing Mecca?



In any case, offtrack, when Tacredo made those remarks about bombing, the very first emails and in fact most of the emails that came in condemning them were from white people. Right now, my colleagues are talking to him; he's not finished yet but will soon be. And there's no threat to Mecca or anything like that. It was an idle and careless statement made by a Congressman, but he is going to pay a very huge price for what he said.

[paris_dakar]

...when did I say I don't?

Read your first post

DQ! I did not express any feelings of apathy. I used the word pointless but the word wasn't used to mean giving up on any issue...

Ok people, does everyone think I said I don't care or is just DQ?

(not your specific ass, DQ. I am referring to the collective western, asian, arab, hindu, muslim, christian asses)

Its the same collective asses I talked about P_D, looks like you took it to be your ass only.

Well you made it point to call out my ass for apathy...

By the way you don't know enough about Hinduism to simply call it a polytheist religion...and religion and faith are two intertwined but different concepts. you can believe in one identity of God or you can divvi up the Divine to make it easier for you(again, 'you' is not you,DQ) to apply to specific situations or whatever...

At no stage did I talk about Hinduism P_D. Neither do I recollect talking about Polyatheism any where in this thread.
Well for the other part of your arguement start a New Topic on Polyatheism or something on that lines and we wil discuss it there.

Only on this post where I have penned You is for you only P_D. At other places it was figure of speech and not intended at you, no offence intended.[/quote]



That was not entirely unrelated. You proceeded to explain who a kafir is. Lets see...Christianity...monotheistic, Judaism...mono...Islam...mono....Hinduism...complex but sift through it and its MONO.....I can't think of one religion that doesn't proclaim a single identity of HIM.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Ok people, does everyone think I said I don't care or is just DQ?

paris_dakar, say hello to DQ...

I can't think of one religion that doesn't proclaim a single identity of HIM.

Why isnt it HER? How can anyone be so sure that god is male and not female?

why should god have a gender at all? S/He may be neither, no gender, neutral!

Since quran is direct gods word, can anyone recall if its mentioned anywhere in quran that god is male?



I have more questions, will start a new topic.

[lonewolf]

Ok people, does everyone think I said I don't care or is just DQ?

Thats why CtrlAltDel told you to say hello to DQ.

[paris_dakar]

Point taken fellas...



It is HER too...I am only human...got my downsides.



I find it Ironic that WE can give an identity to the ONE whose identity we are of...

[DQ]

After all this you've explained about Al Qaeda, its obvious that you know Al Qaeda is a well established outfit whose presence and operations are acknowledged globally. Then why do you have to use the term "so called"?

You sum it all up, Lone.

Who acknowledges and gives them credence?

The same force that created them. Would it not be their problem to sort out the nuiscance they created.



For heavens sake don't come back with the propostion, bombing a "million to save a billion" one.



I guess honesty is the first thing that is needed, the first fix to this situation is Unifying. How do you do that ?

- Just one word. "Sorry". Sorry we were wrong. Instead of targetting AL Qaeda (our creation) we went out on a "Crusade" (Read President Bush's first statement.)

- We need the assistance of the entire world now. Come lets get together.



Things will change......



But no the rhetoric goes on. "Yesterdays statement, They do not know the American resolve" Reminds me of one of Pharoahs Speech I read a couple of years back.



Shucks I have started all over again. No I will not discuss this any more this point forward.

[lonewolf]

Who acknowledges and gives them credence?
The same force that created them. Would it not be their problem to sort out the nuiscance they created.

So going by your own statements, would you justify the carnage of 2000 Muslims in Godra following the murder of those in the train?

[DQ]

Who acknowledges and gives them credence?
The same force that created them. Would it not be their problem to sort out the nuiscance they created.

So going by your own statements, would you justify the carnage of 2000 Muslims in Godra following the murder of those in the train?

? : ?

[Mayavi Morpheus]

so I was thinking, if muslims societies in west and elsewhere are not really alienating themselves and integration is restricted only to economic integration and not social and cultural integration, why do most muslim majority states turn into Islamic republics. Even those nations with sizelable non-muslim population - pakistan, bangladesh, Malaysia - turned into Islamic republics!



second, if any act of voiclence against a muslim is percieved as an attack on Islam itself and muslims worldwide find it as an obligation to fight this 'injustice', why is it that muslims worldover and islam itself be blamed for the terrorrist activities of few of the adherents?

[lonewolf]

You are again indirectly justifying the existence and operations of Al-Qaeda.



Ok, let me explain in clear English based on what you said in your earlier post. You said about this about Al-Qaeda:

Who acknowledges and gives them credence?
The same force that created them. Would it not be their problem to sort out the nuiscance they created.

Well, its clear that you mean that what Al-Qaeda does makes sense because of discrimination of Muslims all around the world.



Apply these statements of yours to the genocide by the mobs in Gujarat in 2002. What was the force that caused the mob to murder all those people? According to your statements, the murder of 2000 Muslims at the hands of the mob would be justified too, just like how you don't mind or don't care who the Al-Qaeda kills (and you accused poor paris_dakar of apathy!!).



So why did you list the Godra carnage in your list of atrocities earlier? Technically it is a justifiable event, according to you.



If you still can't understand this, I can't help it because you are probably not even thinking anything except the one-liner that Muslims all over the world are being treated unjustly.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

http://us.rediff.com/news/2005/aug/06guest1.htm

Every time they mention 'root causes' in the same breath as they condemn an act of terrorism they effectively end up providing a tacit justification for terrorism. What is more, this state of denial prevents a deeper soul searching within the community on the direction the religion is taking and prevents any course correction.

But the implicit justification offered by the so-called moderate Muslims to acts of Islamic terrorism by pointing out at the 'root causes' begs the question: does the 'root cause' of Islamic terrorism lie in social, political and economic conditions in Muslim societies or do they lie in the religion itself? Do the root causes lie in 'grievances' of Muslims or do they lie in the way Islam is perceived, taught and imbibed by its followers?

[CtrlAltDel]

......muslims societies in west and elsewhere are not really alienating themselves and integration is restricted only to economic integration and not social and cultural integration..........
.
.
.
.
..........if any act of voiclence against a muslim is percieved as an attack on Islam itself and muslims worldwide find it as an obligation to fight this 'injustice'......

thats exactly what i was referring to when i was talking about "Integration".

i asked DQ the same thing in my last on-topic post (on 3rd or 4th page) but he neatly avoided answering it and closed the debate

[Mayavi Morpheus]

It really baffles when people condem terrorrist acts saying its not Islamic and then go on to add " you see, if the US didnt attack Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place, there wouldnt have been london bombings". People tend to forget that if Osama bin laden didnt attack US and kill 3000 people (250 of them Indians), US wouldnt have attacked Iraq and Afghanistan!

[Xeno]

It really baffles when people condem terrorrist acts saying its not Islamic and then go on to add " you see, if the US didnt attack Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place, there wouldnt have been london bombings". People tend to forget that if Osama bin laden didnt attack US and kill 3000 people (250 of them Indians), US wouldnt have attacked Iraq and Afghanistan!

That is your problem, I am sorry to say that you are being nothing more than a jerk by saying or imlying the Hindutvadi (RSS) line of thinking that Osama bin laden and Iraq are connected ,whereas there is no clear proof or anything that supports that line of thinking, the question is not who did what ,but who is using what as a pretext to do things at a scale which would otherwise not have been possible.If we go by your logic then since LTTE killed Rajiv Gandhi and others in the blast it would give India the right to bomb Srilanka,thats it!



Going by your posts in this thread,I think you are one of those people who derives pleasure by propagating lies and watching people defend it.

[akhilis2cool]

It really baffles when people condem terrorrist acts saying its not Islamic and then go on to add " you see, if the US didnt attack Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place, there wouldnt have been london bombings". People tend to forget that if Osama bin laden didnt attack US and kill 3000 people (250 of them Indians), US wouldnt have attacked Iraq and Afghanistan!

That is your problem, I am sorry to say that you are being nothing more than a jerk by saying or imlying the Hindutvadi (RSS) line of thinking that Osama bin laden and Iraq are connected ,whereas there is no clear proof or anything that supports that line of thinking, the question is not who did what ,but who is using what as a pretext to do things at a scale which would otherwise not have been possible.If we go by your logic then since LTTE killed Rajiv Gandhi and others in the blast it would give India the right to bomb Srilanka,thats it!

Going by your posts in this thread,I think you are one of those people who derives pleasure by propagating lies and watching people defend it.

Didnt US use the 911 bombing as a pretext for attacking afghnistan and later iraq?

[Mayavi Morpheus]

That is your problem, I am sorry to say that you are being nothing more than a jerk by saying or imlying the Hindutvadi (RSS) line of thinking that Osama bin laden and Iraq are connected ,whereas there is no clear proof or anything that supports that line of thinking, the question is not who did what ,but who is using what as a pretext to do things at a scale which would otherwise not have been possible.If we go by your logic then since LTTE killed Rajiv Gandhi and others in the blast it would give India the right to bomb Srilanka,thats it!

Going by your posts in this thread,I think you are one of those people who derives pleasure by propagating lies and watching people defend it.

Thank you for your wonderful insights. Next time you wish to educate me, please catch up on earlier discussions.

And please leave Hindutva out of this, because Hindutva is a peaceful movement just like Islam - its just some misguided followers



ps: I didnt know that it was RSS idea to attack Iraq.

[Xeno]

That is your problem, I am sorry to say that you are being nothing more than a jerk by saying or imlying the Hindutvadi (RSS) line of thinking that Osama bin laden and Iraq are connected ,whereas there is no clear proof or anything that supports that line of thinking, the question is not who did what ,but who is using what as a pretext to do things at a scale which would otherwise not have been possible.If we go by your logic then since LTTE killed Rajiv Gandhi and others in the blast it would give India the right to bomb Srilanka,thats it!

Going by your posts in this thread,I think you are one of those people who derives pleasure by propagating lies and watching people defend it.

Thank you for your wonderful insights. Next time you wish to educate me, please catch up on earlier discussions.
And please leave Hindutva out of this, because Hindutva is a peaceful movement just like Islam - its just some misguided followers

ps: I didnt know that it was RSS idea to attack Iraq.

You are being modest here ,I cant educated a learned person like you especially after seeing your picture,pretty impressive huh!No I am not saying that it was RSS idea ,all I am saying is that you sound like people who stick to that kinda ideology propogated by RSS and a whole bunch of other organizations related to it, if you are not I wonder if there is any other "movement" that motivates you to post loads and loads of B.S without any references or anything to derive a point,which by the way I am not sure what it is ,is it "integration" which you seem to imply to be confined to drinking(even if a person doesnt want to ) ,going to clubs,pubbing,changing way of life interms of small things like clothing etc.. or "alienation" which according to you is leading a dignified professional life as law abiding citizens paying taxes etc...

[CtrlAltDel]

You are being modest here ,I cant educated a learned person like you especially after seeing your picture,pretty impressive huh!No I am not saying that it was RSS idea ,all I am saying is that you sound like people who stick to that kinda ideology propogated by RSS and a whole bunch of other organizations related to it, if you are not I wonder if there is any other "movement" that motivates you to post loads and loads of B.S without any references or anything to derive a point,which by the way I am not sure what it is ,is it "integration" which you seem to imply to be confined to drinking(even if a person doesnt want to ) ,going to clubs,pubbing,changing way of life interms of small things like clothing etc.. or "alienation" which according to you is leading a dignified professional life as law abiding citizens paying taxes etc...

are u DQ's brother or something? can u point out where anyone has said that integration means doing all u n DQ have listed out?

look at my last post and u'll see what i meant by "integration"!



and why are u behaving like the Jews of America? if anyone points out the mistakes/crimes of Israel, they scream about "Anti-Semetism"....



accusing people of RSS mentality is the last resort of people who have no arguments to support whatever claims they want to make

[Mayavi Morpheus]

if you are not I wonder if there is any other "movement" that motivates you to post loads and loads of B.S without any references or anything to derive a point,

Its a movement called Rational Thinking. Please check with your local maulvi if its Islamic or not to be associated with that movement. And I am sorry I couldnt find any journal publications for references, please make do with online articles and editorials.

which you seem to imply to be confined to drinking(even if a person doesnt want to ) ,going to clubs,pubbing,changing way of life interms of small things like clothing etc.. or "alienation" which according to you is leading a dignified professional life as law abiding citizens paying taxes etc...

... a lawyer [of Pakistani descent] at the Justice Department ...informed us that ... more and more mosques are telling people present for prayers that ‘we need to have separate schools so that we could protect our children from American culture’...

“...I am a 47-year old, working class, white Englishman, who frequently works in London and was in the area of two of the incidents last week, where there were four failed suicide bomber attempts. I’ve always considered myself to be a moderate man and this series of events ... is extremely worrying. Recently I have heard Afro-Caribbean immigrants demanding that all Muslims be sent back (even those born here!). I don’t feel that’s fair but have grave concerns that our cultures are mutually incompatible. We feel like we have taken in a nest of vipers. We feel betrayed by immigrants who have come here to our homeland who consider us as corrupt and immoral. Our women are branded as whores. Some immigrants say we are not fit to govern our own country and that they seek to make Britain a Muslim state...

... a lawyer [of Pakistani descent] at the Justice Department ...informed us that ... more and more mosques are telling people present for prayers that ‘we need to have separate schools so that we could protect our children from American culture’...

From dawn, the paki paper.



Funny you said 'law abiding' citizens. Which law are you referring to? Sharia or the countries civil/criminal law?

[Xeno]

[quote="Mayavi Morpheus

From dawn, the paki paper.



Funny you said 'law abiding' citizens. Which law are you referring to? Sharia or the countries civil/criminal law?[/quote]



Funny isnt it the way you are stressing "The Paki" paper,now I am not a psychiatrist but I can sure feel that your hatred for Pak is driving you nuts, I dont care if you hate or love anybody,but if you hate Pak hate it to the extent that they know it but dont take it as an excuse to hate or preach hatread towards the Muslim community in general,and thats where the RSS and their likes fit in. I suggest that you use your "purohit" sanctioned "Rational Thinking" at some other anti pak or "rationally" anti pak sites so that you find some easy believers there .I am sure there are whole bunch of them out there.

[CtrlAltDel]

if you hate Pak hate it to the extent that they know it but dont take it as an excuse to hate or preach hatread towards the Muslim community in general

when did that happen?



'Paki' is short for PAKISTANI, in case u dont know its insulting only if whites says it (same as 'niggaz' is inulting for blacks only if non-blacks say it) and FYI, the paki newspaper Dawn is very much respected and known for its purohit sanctioned rational views



Xeno, did u follow what this thread was all about? did u read the posts fully? can u tell me what points of Mayavi (and I) u disagree with and why u do so? it'll be better if u opt for a debate instead avoiding one by accusing others of communalism.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Funny isnt it the way you are stressing "The Paki" paper,now I am not a psychiatrist but I can sure feel that your hatred for Pak is driving you nuts, I dont care if you hate or love anybody,but if you hate Pak hate it to the extent that they know it but dont take it as an excuse to hate or preach hatread towards the Muslim community in general,and thats where the RSS and their likes fit in. I suggest that you use your "purohit" sanctioned "Rational Thinking" at some other anti pak or "rationally" anti pak sites so that you find some easy believers there .I am sure there are whole bunch of them out there.

Oh boy! seems I stepped on some raw nerve. I just said paki because I dont like writing the entire word 'pakistani' and Dawn is not an international news paper like NYtimes or WSJ which everyone can recognize. But, temme, why does it bother you?



ps: If it helps, I have a paki gf. So you see I dont hate all pakis.



pps: You seem to have ignored the content of the news paper.

[CtrlAltDel]

...I have a paki gf...

why did u tell him that??? he'll now accuse u of being part of an RSS plot to lead muslim girls astray

[Mayavi Morpheus]

why did u tell him that??? he'll now accuse u of being part of an RSS plot to lead muslim girls astray

May be it is... may be my subconcious mind is being controlled by RSS or may be I am being shown the right path and will convert to Islam.