Kufr-Kafir

[Mayavi Morpheus]

MM your query about call Muslims Muslims , Hindu Hindus etc, for heavens sake "Kafir" is not a word used to describe religions, its a general term used for non believers.

Clarify this first, am I a 'kafir' or not?

Your statement about FU*C* and Love prove your mettle dude. AGAIN "Kafir" is not a slang or slur, if you can differentiate between language and Slur.

You need a Semantic explanation, sure? Let me quote an example: Half _. As sherry said, _ is not a slur. It means that the persons d*ck is cut. It is not an insulting term for muslims, it is a linguistic term to refer to people who had their thing sliced.
Same with bastard. It is not a slur. It is a linguistic term for a child whose father is not known.
what next... mmm... mother f*cker? Yeah, It is not a slur. It is a linguistic term used to describe a person who fornicates his mother. not slur at all.

And if you are that interested in Quoting Quran, atleast think logically.
The parts of Al Anfal that you have picked up.
Ok you are a Non Believer, but not the one who plotted to KILL, that point forward you need not worry about what it says about those Plotted to kill.

Who is a kafir? Who is an unbeliever? what is the difference between an 'unbeliever' who tried to expel muhammed from mecca (henceforth referred to as kafir 1) and the person who is kafir since he dont believe in allah(henceforth referred to as kafir 2). Is there a system in place to differentiate between the two. What is an attack on Islam? If I call you names, is it considered an attack against Islam? will I be a 'kafir 1' or 'kafir2'. which quranic verses will you activate to deal with me if am souped up kafir aka kafir1(the islam hater, muslim killer et al) and which ones will you activate if I am a plain vanilla kafir aka kafir2.



Give me a straight answer to this rahter than another long_meaningless_circuitous_totally_avoiding_the_question_ rant and another irrelevant quote from quran, then I will continue this discussion.

[Xeno]

Kafir is a person who doesnt believe in Allah i.e is one god, there are no vesrions in it as you have in your belief like caste versioin 1 top most,version 2 second highest etc...



Its more of a technical term than anything else liek the jews use the words "gentiles" for non jews ,and christians use the word "pagans" for people who follow idolatory...the only difference is that the word is Arabic and the otherwords are in English and thats giving you a sore ass...

[DQ]

You need a Semantic explanation, sure? Let me quote an example: Half _. As sherry said, half-_ is not a slur. It means that the persons d*ck is cut. It is not an insulting term for muslims, it is a linguistic term to refer to people who had their thing sliced.
Same with bastard. It is not a slur. It is a linguistic term for a child whose father is not known.
what next... mmm... mother f*cker? Yeah, It is not a slur. It is a linguistic term used to describe a person who fornicates his mother. not slur at all.

From a person who wants a healthy debate. tch tch.



Before running after others viles, hide your vices.

This completely exposes your mettle.



Not that I can't, but if you want me to stoop to the level of dialogue you intend to carry forward it ain't gonna happen.



For the circutios_etc_etc_etc, HUH, the writings on the wall, are you the one who plotted to Kill, expel? It is that un beliver Quran is talking about its that simple.



Heed my advice get some real PSYCH Help.

[CtrlAltDel]

Mayavi, i think u r wrong in this arguement. as far as i know abt the word 'kafir', its a term for a non-muslim, ie a person who doesnt believe in Allah.



in this case i dont mind saying i am a kafir and i see no harm or shame in it. its just what one believes about God and anyone has the right to believe in anything, AFAIK.



well, the fact that it has been used by many to discriminate on the basis of religion doesnt mean its a derogatory word.

[Sharjeel]

Mayavi, i think u r wrong in this arguement. as far as i know abt the word 'kafir', its a term for a non-muslim, ie a person who doesnt believe in Allah.

well, the fact that it has been used by many to discriminate on the basis of religion doesnt mean its a derogatory word.

Exactly!



KAFIR does not mean someone who does not believe in Allah. The literal meaning of Kafir iss "one who rejects". If we focus on the word as it stands, we will see that it is actually a very soft term used to describe non-muslims.



The Quran has deliberately used a soft and nice word for non-muslims, and not some derogatory word like mofo idolator or somesuch.



The percieved hate for non-muslims in this word can be attributed to the fact that CAD pointd out; that it has been used like a gaali against non-mulims. In fact, the word 'non-muslim' in my view should be more insulting than 'kaafir'.



As far the quoting the Quran is concerned, as DQ said, the Quranic view in that particular verses were severe on the Kafirs, as the kafirs that the Quran was mentioning in those verses had done something against the muslims.



A better explanation would again be the Surah that I had quoted in the "walled off" thread. The Surah starts with the word [i]Qul Yaa aiyuhal Kaafiruun[/b]. I'll quote the surah again.



IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:



SAY: "O you who deny the truth! (kaafiruun)



I do not worship that which you worship,



and neither do you worship that which I worship!



And I will not worship that which you have [ever] worshipped,



and neither will you [ever] worship that which I worship.



So, unto you, your faith, and unto me, mine."

[DQ]

Mayavi, i think u r wrong in this arguement. as far as i know abt the word 'kafir', its a term for a non-muslim, ie a person who doesnt believe in Allah.

well, the fact that it has been used by many to discriminate on the basis of religion doesnt mean its a derogatory word.

Exactly!

KAFIR does not mean someone who does not believe in Allah. The literal meaning of Kafir iss "one who rejects". If we focus on the word as it stands, we will see that it is actually a very soft term used to describe non-muslims.

The Quran has deliberately used a soft and nice word for non-muslims, and not some derogatory word like mofo idolator or somesuch.

The percieved hate for non-muslims in this word can be attributed to the fact that CAD pointd out; that it has been used like a gaali against non-mulims. In fact, the word 'non-muslim' in my view should be more insulting than 'kaafir'.

As far the quoting the Quran is concerned, as DQ said, the Quranic view in that particular verses were severe on the Kafirs, as the kafirs that the Quran was mentioning in those verses had done something against the muslims.

A better explanation would again be the Surah that I had quoted in the "walled off" thread. The Surah starts with the word [i]Qul Yaa aiyuhal Kaafiruun[/b]. I'll quote the surah again.

IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:

SAY: "O you who deny the truth! (kaafiruun)

I do not worship that which you worship,

and neither do you worship that which I worship!

And I will not worship that which you have [ever] worshipped,

and neither will you [ever] worship that which I worship.

So, unto you, your faith, and unto me, mine."

Aptly said Sherry.

This opens another query though, all of you tend to agree that "Kafir" was used to "discriminate". Can you give me some historical evidence where this occured.

If it is a sensitive word to certain sections of people I would want to be mind ful of its use there.

Let me end with another Quranic quote

If you disbelieve, know that God is certainly independent of you. He does not want disbelief for His servants. If you give thanks, He will accept it from you. No one will be responsible for the sins of others. To your Lord you will all return and He will tell you about what you have done. He knows best what the hearts contain (39:7).

[CtrlAltDel]

all of you tend to agree that "Kafir" was used to "discriminate". Can you give me some historical evidence where this occured.

in history i can point out the evil Jazia tax imposed by Aurangzeb on Kafirs (aka Hindus and Christians).

more recently, the order of the Taliban for kafir citizens to wear yellow bands to mark them out. the were left out of whatever little rights the Taliban gave their muslim citizens.

i need not talk about how Saudi Arabia treats the kafirs working in the country.

[DQ]

all of you tend to agree that "Kafir" was used to "discriminate". Can you give me some historical evidence where this occured.

in history i can point out the evil Jazia tax imposed by Aurangzeb on Kafirs (aka Hindus and Christians).
more recently, the order of the Taliban for kafir citizens to wear yellow bands to mark them out. the were left out of whatever little rights the Taliban gave their muslim citizens.
i need not talk about how Saudi Arabia treats the kafirs working in the country.

Oh I see, so the grudges are from there.

[CtrlAltDel]

all of you tend to agree that "Kafir" was used to "discriminate". Can you give me some historical evidence where this occured.

in history i can point out the evil Jazia tax imposed by Aurangzeb on Kafirs (aka Hindus and Christians).
more recently, the order of the Taliban for kafir citizens to wear yellow bands to mark them out. the were left out of whatever little rights the Taliban gave their muslim citizens.
i need not talk about how Saudi Arabia treats the kafirs working in the country.

Oh I see, so the grudges are from there.

well..u wanted evidence of how the term 'kafir' was (and is) being used to discriminate...



within Islam itself, Ahmadiya sect is as good as Kafir and according to the 'Anjuman Sipah-e-Sahaba' (a militant Sunni organization of pakistan), Shias are kafirs too. so its also being used by muslim sects to declare each other non-muslim.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

KAFIR does not mean someone who does not believe in Allah. The literal meaning of Kafir iss "one who rejects". If we focus on the word as it stands, we will see that it is actually a very soft term used to describe non-muslims.

Kafir may not be offensive sherry, but its the consequences of being kafir that I fear.

009.004
(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

009.005
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.029

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

[lonewolf]

well..u wanted evidence of how the term 'kafir' was (and is) being used to discriminate...

Behind the scenes, Indian Muslims are sarcastically referred to as half-kafirs by many others just because they live in a predominantly Hindu country. And I think this is very nasty. Probably no Indian Muslim is called a Kafir directly, but sneak into other circles and you'll know.

[CtrlAltDel]

Indian Muslims are sarcastically referred to as half-kafirs

...i am a witness to those comments. some pakis called my muslim colleague that when we were in Australia. but my friend ignored them and walked away. maybe this is why most of the indian muslims i know dont get along well with the pakis.

[Sharjeel]

Indian Muslims are sarcastically referred to as half-kafirs

...i am a witness to those comments. some pakis called my muslim colleague that when we were in Australia. but my friend ignored them and walked away. maybe this is why most of the indian muslims i know dont get along well with the pakis.

You do not knnow half of it! Indians (hindus n christians n everyone else) label us as Pakistanis in disguise, and Pakis call us half-kafir! Wonder wht that makes us! It is majorly irritating, but me not gripin about the idiots, because there are enough good people left in this wonderful country.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Indians (hindus n christians n everyone else) label us as Pakistanis in disguise, and Pakis call us half-kafir! Wonder wht that makes us! It is majorly irritating, but me not gripin about the idiots, because there are enough good people left in this wonderful country.

We had some of those idots post on these boards too. Its just sad that even after 50 years after partition there is so much animosity between the two communities... but I will blame both communities for the present situation.

[DQ]

Kafir may not be offensive sherry, but its the consequences of being kafir that I fear.

009.004
(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

TYPICAL EXAMPLE OF A SCARE MONGERER.
I repeat my question, why do you not paste the entire chapter from where you pull the exerpts?

Let me help you and also those who may fall into your trap of maiming and tainting.

MM has posted from Sura Tawbah. (The Repentance)

God and His Messenger declare the abrogation(To abolish, do away with, or annul, especially by authority) of the peace treaty that existed between them and the pagans (9:1).

Why?

This does not apply to the pagans with whom you have a valid peace treaty and who have not broken it from their side or helped others against you. You (believers) must fulfill the terms of the peace treaty with them. God loves the pious ones. (9:4)

How can the pagans, except those with whom you have established a peace treaty in the precinct of the Sacred Mosque, have a covenant with God and His Messenger? If they respect the pact, you too should also follow its terms. God loves the pious ones. (9:7)

How could God and His Messenger grant them (pagans) peace when if they were to acquire superiority over you, they would respect none of the peace treaties nor their kindred relations with you! They only try to please you by paying lip-service to you but their hearts are against you and most of them are evil-doers (9:8).

They have sold God's revelations for a paltry price and have created obstacles in the way of God. What they have done is evil (9:9). They do not respect their promises nor their family ties with the believers. They are transgressors. (9:10)

If they repent, perform their prayers, pay religious tax, they would be your brothers in the religion. We explain Our revelations to people of knowledge. (9:11)

Fight against the leaders of the unbelievers if they violate their established peace treaty with you and revile your faith, to force them to stop their aggression against you. You do not have to bind yourselves to such a treaty (9:12).

Why will you not fight against a people who have broken their peace treaty with you, have decided to expel the Messenger (from his home town), and who were the first to disregard the peace treaty? If you are true believers, you should only have fear of God. (9:13)

Your fear and your increased interest in those verses where God has Commanded Muslims to fight aginst those

- Who are Liars,

- Who Plotted to Kill Muhammed (SA).

- Who have Broken treaties.

- Who Have plundered wealth.

- WHO Plan to spread hatered within Human Beings.



Goes on to show that you identify with such people hence fear on what is written.



For Others, again the above Quotes are from Sura e Tauba (The Repentance) do a search and read the full chapter.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

May be you should atleast read the verses you are quoting.

How could God and His Messenger grant them (pagans) peace when if they were to acquire superiority over you, they would respect none of the peace treaties nor their kindred relations with you! They only try to please you by paying lip-service to you but their hearts are against you and most of them are evil-doers (9:8 )

So pagans/kafirs are dishonest. Only muslims are capable of holding the peacve treaties but pagans will definitely break the treaties?

009.029

[b]Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

This one clearly says that you should fight all those who donot believe in Allah.

1. Fight all those who donot follow Islam or hold Islam as true religion

2. Fight those that practice the forbidden by allah - abstincnece, alcohol etc.

3. Fight those who dont believe in judgement day.



There are no if's and buts. This applies to all and not just those who are liars (ok, I am a liar, so whats your problem?) or fought muhammed. Enough with your BS. go to you local maulvi and ask him to explain the quran to you and come back to me.



I am dont arguing with you, I would wait for someone more knowledgeable to respond.

[DQ]

May be you should atleast read the verses you are quoting.

How could God and His Messenger grant them (pagans) peace when if they were to acquire superiority over you, they would respect none of the peace treaties nor their kindred relations with you! They only try to please you by paying lip-service to you but their hearts are against you and most of them are evil-doers (9:8 )

So pagans/kafirs are dishonest. Only muslims are capable of holding the peacve treaties but pagans will definitely break the treaties?

He He you seriously need some Help. Contact the best Psych in town MM. You tend to ignore the Verse above that and lauch a self perceived attack.

This does not apply to the pagans with whom you have a valid peace treaty and who have not broken it from their side or helped others against you. You (believers) must fulfill the terms of the peace treaty with them. God loves the pious ones. (9:4)

This clearly shows that neither will you read nor try to understand.

You strongly beleive the following.

This one clearly says that you should fight all those who donot believe in Allah.
1. Fight all those who donot follow Islam or hold Islam as true religion
2. Fight those that practice the forbidden by allah - abstincnece, alcohol etc.
3. Fight those who dont believe in judgement day.

There are no if's and buts. This applies to all and not just those who are liars (ok, I am a liar, so whats your problem?) or fought muhammed. Enough with your BS. go to you local maulvi and ask him to explain the quran to you and come back to me.

As XENO rightly pointed you have a some sort of disorder, get it checked its not healthy.

Quran also tells about such a person.

But to those whose hearts are sick, it adds more filth to their hearts and they die as disbelievers. (9:125)

I am dont arguing with you, I would wait for someone more knowledgeable to respond.

Some one who can buy your rant empathise with your disorder , Who? he he.



For records sake.



MM has Already declared.



1. He is a Non Believer.

2. Hates Muslims.

3. Is a Liar.

4. Posts have also proved that he is foul mouthed.

Lets see what else is exposed

[Mayavi Morpheus]

009.004
(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

009.005
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Which part of this verse do you not understand?

[Sharjeel]

May be you should atleast read the verses you are quoting.

How could God and His Messenger grant them (pagans) peace when if they were to acquire superiority over you, they would respect none of the peace treaties nor their kindred relations with you! They only try to please you by paying lip-service to you but their hearts are against you and most of them are evil-doers (9:8 )

So pagans/kafirs are dishonest. Only muslims are capable of holding the peacve treaties but pagans will definitely break the treaties?
.
.
.

With all due respect MM, are you just trying yo pass your time by quoting out-of-context?

[DQ]

Read it again.

May be you should atleast read the verses you are quoting.

How could God and His Messenger grant them (pagans) peace when if they were to acquire superiority over you, they would respect none of the peace treaties nor their kindred relations with you! They only try to please you by paying lip-service to you but their hearts are against you and most of them are evil-doers (9:8 )

So pagans/kafirs are dishonest. Only muslims are capable of holding the peacve treaties but pagans will definitely break the treaties?

He He you seriously need some Help. Contact the best Psych in town MM. You tend to ignore the Verse above that and lauch a self perceived attack.

This does not apply to the pagans with whom you have a valid peace treaty and who have not broken it from their side or helped others against you. You (believers) must fulfill the terms of the peace treaty with them. God loves the pious ones. (9:4)

This clearly shows that neither will you read nor try to understand.

You strongly beleive the following.

This one clearly says that you should fight all those who donot believe in Allah.
1. Fight all those who donot follow Islam or hold Islam as true religion
2. Fight those that practice the forbidden by allah - abstincnece, alcohol etc.
3. Fight those who dont believe in judgement day.

There are no if's and buts. This applies to all and not just those who are liars (ok, I am a liar, so whats your problem?) or fought muhammed. Enough with your BS. go to you local maulvi and ask him to explain the quran to you and come back to me.

As XENO rightly pointed you have a some sort of disorder, get it checked its not healthy.

Quran also tells about such a person.

But to those whose hearts are sick, it adds more filth to their hearts and they die as disbelievers. (9:125)

I am dont arguing with you, I would wait for someone more knowledgeable to respond.

Some one who can buy your rant empathise with your disorder , Who? he he.

For records sake.

MM has Already declared.

1. He is a Non Believer.
2. Hates Muslims.
3. Is a Liar.
4. Posts have also proved that he is foul mouthed.
Lets see what else is exposed

[Mayavi Morpheus]

With all due respect MM, are you just trying yo pass your time by quoting out-of-context?

I didnt quote that verse. DQ quoted it. I actually dont find any problem with it in any context. But it would be great if you can explain the context in which the verses I quoted apply.

I understood it in one way, tell me how you interpret it and how it is actually interpreted by muslims outside India. And while you are at it, you could also explain me why pakistanis consider Indian muslims as half-kafirs.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Read it again.

gee... what a moron!

009.001
A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-


009.002
Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.

009.003
And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.


009.004
(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

009.005
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Now someone explain me how these should be interpreted.

and this

009.029
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Is this not the reason why Jaziya was collected by mughals from non-muslims? It just says 'disbelievers', nothing more. Not jsut those who attacked muhammed or anyone... just fight all those who dont believe in allah - No qualifiers attached.

[DQ]

With all due respect MM, are you just trying yo pass your time by quoting out-of-context?

I didnt quote that verse. DQ quoted it. I actually dont find any problem with it in any context. But it would be great if you can explain the context in which the verses I quoted apply.
I understood it in one way, tell me how you interpret it and how it is actually interpreted by muslims outside India. And while you are at it, you could also explain me why pakistanis consider Indian muslims as half-kafirs.

Now this again is a clear example of the "So called RV" attitude you carry.

The thread started of explaining the term "Kafir",
- Immediately you took up the Quran (Incidentally a Book for the Guidance of Believers).
- Started quoting Quran, trying to misguide people into believing that Quran calls for murder / annihilation.
1. We clairified that you are quoting out of context and again request that if you do intend to quote in future quote the full chapter so that it is clear in what context your quotes are.
2. It is also generally agreed that if you are a non believer the term Kafir should not be derogratory.
3. It has also been proved that it can be perceived discriminatory, if you perceive that the person using the term is either, Mr. Aurangzeb, Mr Taliban or Mr Saudi Kingdom.

Now you fall into the typical Indo - Pak, Hindu - Muslim difference to sway the topic.

Another Quote for you to Ponder.

Woe to every slanderer and backbiter (104:1)

who collects and hordes wealth, (2)

thinking that his property will make him live forever (3).

By no means! They will be thrown into hutamah (4).

Would that you knew what hutamah is! (5).

It is a fierce fire created by God (6)

to penetrate into the hearts(7).

It will engulf them (8).

in its long columns of flames (9).

MM has Already declared.



1. He is a Non Believer.

2. Hates Muslims.

3. Is a Liar.

4. Posts have also proved that he is foul mouthed.

Lets see what else is exposed

[Mayavi Morpheus]

YOu know DQ, the reason why I dont argue with you is because you think with you head in ur feet. You just have to display your ignorance by posting on topic of which you have zilch understanding.



anyway, one last attempt to clarify my stand.

Now this again is a clear example of the "So called RV" attitude you carry.

Should I say you have displayed your mullah/fundmanetalist/terrorrist attitude?

The thread started of explaining the term "Kafir",

And I say, stuff it, its derogatory to me beacuse...

- Immediately you took up the Quran (Incidentally a Book for the Guidance of Believers).

Because there are references in quran which have been interpreted in a way to justify attrocities agianst non-muslims or Kufrs. There are many instance throughout the history and the latest one is the discrimination against Ahmadiya's in pakistan.

- Started quoting Quran, trying to misguide people into believing that Quran calls for murder / annihilation.

Honestly, doesnt quran call for murder and annihilation? Whatever be the context, whethere to defend islam or mecca, whatever the case may be. Every verse I quoted in this thread is about murder. Is it not?

1. We clairified that you are quoting out of context and again request that if you do intend to quote in future quote the full chapter so that it is clear in what context your quotes are.

And that doesnt stop you from quoting single verses. islam is a religion of peace. almighty allah is oft mercifull and forgiving. Are you quoting them in context? Do I have to quote entire quran when all I want to point out is one verse? Did you ever bother to explain the context in which those were quoted, NO. All you did was quote another single verse (so much for quoting entire chapter) or slander me.

2. It is also generally agreed that if you are a non believer the term Kafir should not be derogratory.

Who the F*** are you to decide it? Do I tell you what you shld and shouldnt take offence at?

3. It has also been proved that it can be perceived discriminatory, if you perceive that the person using the term is either, Mr. Aurangzeb, Mr Taliban or Mr Saudi Kingdom.

So how do I know that you are not Mr. Aurbangazeb or Mr. taliban? AFAIK, muslims are people of the book. True muslims are supposed to beleive every word in quran without questioning (have you ever met any muslim who questions quran?). I know some muslims who donot follow every word of quran, so I dont mind them calling me kafir in playful banter, but how will I know that some one like you who beleives every word of quran dont mean any harm to me?

Now you fall into the typical Indo - Pak, Hindu - Muslim difference to sway the topic.

What Indo-pak?

MM has Already declared.

1. He is a Non Believer.
2. Hates Muslims.
3. Is a Liar.
4. Posts have also proved that he is foul mouthed.
Lets see what else is exposed

And you were bawling that I quote quran out of context?

[DQ]

YOu know DQ, the reason why I dont argue with you is because you think with you head in ur feet. You just have to display your ignorance by posting on topic of which you have zilch understanding.

anyway, one last attempt to clarify my stand.

Now this again is a clear example of the "So called RV" attitude you carry.

Should I say you have displayed your mullah/fundmanetalist/terrorrist attitude?

The thread started of explaining the term "Kafir",

And I say, stuff it, its derogatory to me beacuse...

- Immediately you took up the Quran (Incidentally a Book for the Guidance of Believers).

Because there are references in quran which have been interpreted in a way to justify attrocities agianst non-muslims or Kufrs. There are many instance throughout the history and the latest one is the discrimination against Ahmadiya's in pakistan.

- Started quoting Quran, trying to misguide people into believing that Quran calls for murder / annihilation.

Honestly, doesnt quran call for murder and annihilation? Whatever be the context, whethere to defend islam or mecca, whatever the case may be. Every verse I quoted in this thread is about murder. Is it not?

1. We clairified that you are quoting out of context and again request that if you do intend to quote in future quote the full chapter so that it is clear in what context your quotes are.

And that doesnt stop you from quoting single verses. islam is a religion of peace. almighty allah is oft mercifull and forgiving. Are you quoting them in context? Do I have to quote entire quran when all I want to point out is one verse? Did you ever bother to explain the context in which those were quoted, NO. All you did was quote another single verse (so much for quoting entire chapter) or slander me.

2. It is also generally agreed that if you are a non believer the term Kafir should not be derogratory.

Who the F*** are you to decide it? Do I tell you what you shld and shouldnt take offence at?

3. It has also been proved that it can be perceived discriminatory, if you perceive that the person using the term is either, Mr. Aurangzeb, Mr Taliban or Mr Saudi Kingdom.

So how do I know that you are not Mr. Aurbangazeb or Mr. taliban? AFAIK, muslims are people of the book. True muslims are supposed to beleive every word in quran without questioning (have you ever met any muslim who questions quran?). I know some muslims who donot follow every word of quran, so I dont mind them calling me kafir in playful banter, but how will I know that some one like you who beleives every word of quran dont mean any harm to me?

Now you fall into the typical Indo - Pak, Hindu - Muslim difference to sway the topic.

What Indo-pak?

MM has Already declared.

1. He is a Non Believer.
2. Hates Muslims.
3. Is a Liar.
4. Posts have also proved that he is foul mouthed.
Lets see what else is exposed

And you were bawling that I quote quran out of context?

The Ignorance AND Banter proceeds.

What you blame me for scroll up and read the posts they are your reflections dude. Exactly why I asked you to seek some PSYCH help.

He He. Anybody who reads through this thread will tell that you lack
- Knowledge of the basic tenenants that you have taken upon to explain
- Lack decency

And on quoting a Verse of Quran, Quran answers itself dude how can I write better then waht is written there.

On strongly believing that Quran propogates violence, no explanation will help you as you dwell in a self perceived concotion.

Alif. Lam. Mim. (2:1)


There is no doubt that this book is a guide for the pious; (2:2)

the pious who believe in the unseen, attend to prayer, give in charity part of what We have granted them; (2:3)

who have faith in what has been revealed to you and others before you and have strong faith in the life hereafter (2:4). It is the pious who follow the guidance of their Lord and gain lasting happiness (2:5).

Those who deny your message will not believe whether you warn them or not (2:6).

God has sealed their hearts and hearing and their vision is veiled; a great punishment awaits them (2:7).

Some people say, "We believe in God and the Day of Judgment," but they are not true believers (2:8).

They deceive God and the believers. However, they have deceived no one but themselves, a fact of which they are not aware (2:9). A sickness exists in their hearts to which God adds more sickness. Besides this, they will suffer a painful punishment as a result of the lie which they speak (2:10).

When they are told not to commit corruption in the land, they reply, "We are only reformers" (2:11).

They, certainly, are corrupt but do not realize it (2:12).

When they are told to believe as everyone else does, they say, "Should we believe as fools do?" In fact, they themselves are fools, but they do not know it (2:13).

To the believers they declare belief and, in secret to their own devils, they say, "We were only mocking" (2:14).

God mocks them and gives them time to continue blindly in their transgressions (2:15).