The Origin of Species

[malakpetmasala]

lagta hai masala bhai kuch zyada hi seriously sonchre....ek ich post d baar

u ll have to consider the alcohol component in the seriousness. but it all does make sense.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Evolution Theory word-per-word is full of loose threads.

Science can only observe upto a certain stage, after which it runs out of anwers. Then some more research is done and they go a lil' bit farther, then stop again. My Science teacher once told me that in the end there will Forever be a point beyond which science cannot go, and after that point, there is God.

God created us Humans and he 'engineered' his creation so that it conformed to a certain set of rules. Ths is what we have come to call as Physics/Chemistry/etc.

There is no GOD.

God did not create this world.

Man likes to think that he is inferioir, that there is some supreme invisible power guiding him and controlling his destiny. We need to fear something so that we can control other people and our own mind. So we created god. That is understandable cos the concept of god was invented by primitive man, a man whose brain was not completely developed or its power not completely harnessed. Primitive man couldnt explain the rising sun, changing seasons, the rains or fire. So he credited everything he couldnt reason or understand to a god, a form of supreme power.

There are still many things which we cannot explain and this is precisely the reason why we still believe in god. But its just blind faith.

The fact that your god and my god are different proves that god doesnt exist.

If he did, and your god is the same as my god, then he must be one helluva sadist to make us fight amongst ourselves in his name.



Your science teacher is partially right. Science always stops at certain point and philosophy and religion takes over. But thats applicable only to our generation. The next generation always goes beyond that point. For them the line of scientific reasoning stops at a different point. Didnt people think that earth was the center of universe in the 16th century (primitive man didnt know the concept of universe) and was it not proved wrong by the voyages of sailors?

A 100 years back who would have thought that there would be phones, computers? Who would have thought that powered flight is possible? Who could have thought that man can develop a weapon which can destroy entire world in few minutes? something which even nature couldnt do in the millions of years of existence? What was not possible for previous generations is possible now. The thought process of man, and not god, did all the wonders.

[CtrlAltDel]

^^^^^ clap clap clap ^^^^^^^

well put Mayavi!



but i believe that there IS some power that set things in motion. call it God, call it what u want. i believe that this "power" started the whole thing off and might be interfereing in day to day life in subtle ways we might not notice.



but i refuse to give a name to this 'power'. i also believe that prayer and rituals don't make any sense or difference, other than giving moral support to the devotee.



i dont pray and i think prayer is a waste of time if yr objective is just to make some "entity" up there happy.



If a benevolent God really exists we need not butter Him/Her/It up with prayers everytime for blessings. if we lead proper and good lives without harming others, He/She/It should do good to us anyway.



AFAIK i lead my life without harming or hurting anyone. so if a God doesnt exist, it makes no difference and if God does exist, he/She/It wud bless me anyway

[malakpetmasala]

the matter was excellently put by Mayavi and CAD, actually i wrote similar stuff in the other post before i read mayavi s post here.



does nt matter if there is god or no god, just be a good human being, its better i dont do good stuff only to please god, than not do any stuff at all., whatever comes, comes from the heart, nothing matters more than being a good person,

to hell with the concept of afterlife.

[Sharjeel]

There is no GOD.
God did not create this world....

Nice gaggle of points you have there Mayavi. Here is my counter:



1. If the people who are calling themselves scientists are soo powerful, mebbe they can actually create something from nothing .



2. The definition of science is that it is the Process of Observation. Science by itself is just a sort of book in which people have observed the interactions of things.



Science cannot disprove God becuz it has no proof that he does not exist. Read up on the latest developments of Science and you will find out thart they keep changing their rules, postulates, etc.





For eons they said that the galaxies are expanding and will eventually collapse. Notice the assumption? They assume that it will keep on expanding. How ridiculous is that? It has just been proven that the galaxies are expanding at an increasing speed. Where does that put the people who till now were writing the Doomsday Chronicles of the Universe? They have just been reduced to the level of idiots.



3. Can you show me anything that has been in existence without a creator? Cars, buses, hairpins, (the much vaunted)computers, and all whatnot have all been created by either men or machines or both. How can you then say that the Universe was created all by itself?



You can all jump around and say that you are rational because you do not believe in God, but then you will have to prove your point by showing me how the universe works with perfect harmony. AND dont tell me that it was a Super-Dense matter just sitting around by itself and one day suddenly decided to explode and etc, etc.

[CtrlAltDel]

Sharjeel is right here....there is no explanation of HOw things got created...what started the process etc.



thats y i said in my post that there has to be SOMETHING out there that set the whole thing in motion.

[The Jackal]

1. If the people who are calling themselves scientists are soo powerful, mebbe they can actually create something from nothing .

Actually they did creat something from nothing.Its called Antimatter.It was devoloped by a company called CERN in switzerland.Do a google on it.

[Sharjeel]

There, God be with me now. CAD would never accept that there is no God .



That Antimatter thngy is BS in the context of this disccussion as they are not creating something from nothing, but they are actually transforming matter which is already present.

[malakpetmasala]

1. If the people who are calling themselves scientists are soo powerful, mebbe they can actually create something from nothing .

if u can give me an example of someone(aka God) having done it in the past,please let me know how and when

2. The definition of science is that it is the Process of Observation. Science by itself is just a sort of book in which people have observed the interactions of things.

as a process of discovering themselves and their surroundings and not stupidly and blindlly believing what some one asked them to.

Science cannot disprove God becuz it has no proof that he does not exist. Read up on the latest developments of Science and you will find out thart they keep changing their rules, postulates, etc.

sciences has no rules, just more observations to be changed with more knowledge.

For eons they said that the galaxies are expanding and will eventually collapse. Notice the assumption? They assume that it will keep on expanding. How ridiculous is that? It has just been proven that the galaxies are expanding at an increasing speed. Where does that put the people who till now were writing the Doomsday Chronicles of the Universe? They have just been reduced to the level of idiots.

are u contradicting urself in this comment?anyway, the universe is still expanding.

3. Can you show me anything that has been in existence without a creator? Cars, buses, hairpins, (the much vaunted)computers, and all whatnot have all been created by either men or machines or both. How can you then say that the Universe was created all by itself?

just look around u.

You can all jump around and say that you are rational because you do not believe in God, but then you will have to prove your point by showing me how the universe works with perfect harmony. AND dont tell me that it was a Super-Dense matter just sitting around by itself and one day suddenly decided to explode and etc, etc.

universe does nt really perfect harmony, nothing in the universe does, and the earth with all the calamities is a perfect example of this.







there are a few too many things that have nt been explained till date, but these things have nt been explained does nt mean that theere is no explanation for it, just takes time.there would nt be a big difference betwee the cave men and us if we start associating things we dont know about to some supreme being. And just cos someone believes in something different, we just dont go killing them for their belief. do we?

[Sharjeel]

1. If the people who are calling themselves scientists are soo powerful, mebbe they can actually create something from nothing .

if u can give me an example of someone(aka God) having done it in the past,please let me know how and when

Look around you (to use your words). Can you explain then how the Universe came into being?

2. The definition of science is that it is the Process of Observation. Science by itself is just a sort of book in which people have observed the interactions of things.

as a process of discovering themselves and their surroundings and not stupidly and blindlly believing what some one asked them to.

I agree. Which is why you must also stop 'blindly and stupidly' denouncing the thory of God. Perhaps it could also be the correct theory.

Science cannot disprove God becuz it has no proof that he does not exist. Read up on the latest developments of Science and you will find out thart they keep changing their rules, postulates, etc.

sciences has no rules, just more observations to be changed with more knowledge.

For eons they said that the galaxies are expanding and will eventually collapse. Notice the assumption? They assume that it will keep on expanding. How ridiculous is that? It has just been proven that the galaxies are expanding at an increasing speed. Where does that put the people who till now were writing the Doomsday Chronicles of the Universe? They have just been reduced to the level of idiots.

are u contradicting urself in this comment?anyway, the universe is still expanding.

It is expanding. they were saying it was gonna stop and collapse. now they were saying that it is increasing in speed of expansion) and it is not gonna stop.

3. Can you show me anything that has been in existence without a creator? Cars, buses, hairpins, (the much vaunted)computers, and all whatnot have all been created by either men or machines or both. How can you then say that the Universe was created all by itself?

just look around u.

Where/ All I can see is the Universe and everything ithat it contains. AND, since it has to have a creator and a time of creation, I am betting that the creator is God.

You can all jump around and say that you are rational because you do not believe in God, but then you will have to prove your point by showing me how the universe works with perfect harmony. AND dont tell me that it was a Super-Dense matter just sitting around by itself and one day suddenly decided to explode and etc, etc.

universe does nt really perfect harmony, nothing in the universe does, and the earth with all the calamities is a perfect example of this.

It is in PERFECT harmony according to even the most pessimistic estimate. It even withstands us people!

The sun comes up EVERY morning. The moon waxes and wanes, the planet go about their orbits. The majority of us are all alive. What more proof do you want?

there would nt be a big difference betwee the cave men and us if we start associating things we dont know about to some supreme being. And just cos someone believes in something different, we just dont go killing them for their belief. do we?

If somebody beleives in God, does he become a cave-man? Why dont YOU come out of your cave and accept the possibility of other thories being right?



And what is wrong with believing in a supreme being? is it that ridiculous? until science can prove me wrong, I will stick to God.

[Lucifer]

in the 1920s there was the famous Ape Trials in a state in the US (kentuky i think). at that time the state had banned the teaching of Darwin's evolution theory in schools and promoted the Biblical theory. a school teacher defied the ban and was tried in a widely publicised case. unfortunately he lost

Yep, that is quite true and they were a bit on the lines of the Salem Witch trials. There is a very good play called "Inherit the Wind" which is on the exact same incident that CAD speaks of. It is a fabulous play. The defence lawyer had a beautiful line of reasoning.



He did not question the bible. The bible says that on the fourth day there was light. So, his reasoning was that how do you account for time that has passed before there was light? The bible says that man appeared in the earth a few thousand years ago. He did not discount that. He said that may be man appeared a few thousand years ago after there was light. But whatever evolution took place occurred before there was light. And how do you know how many years passed before there was light since there was no way of knowing that? So, could a few thousand or a few million years have passed?



I did not quite put it that well, try getting hold of it if you can. It is fab.



On to the thread, I quite believe that Darwin was right. But, I really do not know how the big bang came about, how so much of matter came there in the first place. Perhaps we should go with what Douglass Adams said:



There is a theory that if the Universe is completely understood, it will change into something completely different.

There is another theory that states this has already happened.

[malakpetmasala]

1. Can you explain then how the Universe came into being?

hypothetically, lets stick to ur concept of god creating everything in this universe, both matter and energy, but to create all this, god has to be an entity himself/herself, with immense energy. And according to u, everything has a creater, so who created this god? has he got a creator too?

2. Which is why you must also stop 'blindly and stupidly' denouncing the thory of God. Perhaps it could also be the correct theory.

i support a different theory of existance does nt mean that i hate the theory of god, and just as long as it can not be proven either way, i have no right to accuse the other one, i am just trying to find answers to support my theories instead of blindly believing what people say to me that is in the books.And perhaps the god theory is right, just need a lil bit of more proof even to accept it. with so many different religions saying so many contradictory things about the same person, i some how find it too irrational to accept, if u could lead me to one particular religion that would actually give me the right answers, will definitely do.

It is expanding. they were saying it was gonna stop and collapse. now they were saying that it is increasing in speed of expansion) and it is not gonna stop.

i am not really sure of which scientific study u are talking about, but since i have known, verybody is talking about the universe expaiding and expanding, which is in accordance to the basic principles of physics.

Where/ All I can see is the Universe and everything ithat it contains. AND, since it has to have a creator and a time of creation, I am betting that the creator is God.

i guess the people who burnt women in the name of witchcraft in medival europe also bet that they were witches.

It is in PERFECT harmony according to even the most pessimistic estimate. It even withstands us people!

The sun comes up EVERY morning. The moon waxes and wanes, the planet go about their orbits. The majority of us are all alive. What more proof do you want?

where does the picture of god come in here?

If somebody beleives in God, does he become a cave-man? Why dont YOU come out of your cave and accept the possibility of other thories being right?
.

someone believeing in god does nt make him a cave man, some one being ignorant and trying to believe things blindly and associating everything he cant explain to some unknown supreme power instead of trying to understand it makes some one a cave man.
.

And what is wrong with believing in a supreme being? is it that ridiculous? until science can prove me wrong, I will stick to God.

there is nothig wrong in believeing in a supreme being , i never said it is wrong, we are in a world where we can believe in anything we want, that infact makes us humans, having different beliefs, but being too arrogant and too stubborn about something which does nt even exist, clash over things cos they were written in the books, kill people just cos they believe in something different that what we do is the biggest tragedy.

[The Jackal]

1. Can you explain then how the Universe came into being?

hypothetically, lets stick to ur concept of god creating everything in this universe, both matter and energy, but to create all this, god has to be an entity himself/herself, with immense energy. And according to u, everything has a creater, so who created this god? has he got a creator too?

I have the same question.Oh BTW are you an atheist MM?

[malakpetmasala]

1. Can you explain then how the Universe came into being?

hypothetically, lets stick to ur concept of god creating everything in this universe, both matter and energy, but to create all this, god has to be an entity himself/herself, with immense energy. And according to u, everything has a creater, so who created this god? has he got a creator too?

I have the same question.Oh BTW are you an atheist MM?

i dont really see myself as an athiest, i am a practicing hindu, just that i dont pray or follow the rituals.

[marko]

As mMasala said, there had to be a point where something came from nothing.



There's the old story of the woman who laughed at scientists, and said she had the explanation for the entire universe. she said that the earth is supported on the back of a giant turtle. When asked what the turtle was supported by, her answer was "It's turtles all the way down!"



Saying that you can't see the universe being created out of nothing, and that there must be some sort of creator who was always there is like saying "It's God all the way back!"



Posing God as an explanation for the universe just transfers the problem of beginnings elsewhere, it doesn't answer the question.

[akhilis2cool]

Posing God as an explanation for the universe just transfers the problem of beginnings elsewhere, it doesn't answer the question.

it will remain that way till we know the truth.

[marko]

personally it's not something that concerns me too much, its too big to get my head around. I prefer to think of the universe as a given, an assumption, it's here let's get on with it sort of way.



in this thread i had hoped to talk about a subset of the universe, life. Organised complexity. Self replicating things. Whether or not some entity created the universe (which is pretty irrelevant to everyone except theoretical physicists for the reasons given by both the MM's above) we still have the problem of why it's not just full of rocks and gas.



I don't see this as an athiest versus religious thing, its possible to believe in evolution and be religious (although for an athiest to hold to anything other that evolution would be odd)

[Sharjeel]

I agree with Marko. Let us not make it an Atheist v/s Religious thingy.



And Marko Darlin, do ye not know what happens to threads on FH?

1. Can you explain then how the Universe came into being?

hypothetically, lets stick to ur concept of god creating everything in this universe, both matter and energy, but to create all this, god has to be an entity himself/herself, with immense energy. And according to u, everything has a creater, so who created this god? has he got a creator too?

Science attempts to arrive at a single and simple explanation for every process/phenomena And the simple explanation for this Universe is God.

All Things being equal, the simplest solution to a problem will most often be the correct one.

2. Which is why you must also stop 'blindly and stupidly' denouncing the thory of God. Perhaps it could also be the correct theory.

i support a different theory of existance does nt mean that i hate the theory of god, and just as long as it can not be proven either way, i have no right to accuse the other one, i am just trying to find answers to support my theories instead of blindly believing what people say to me that is in the books.And perhaps the god theory is right, just need a lil bit of more proof even to accept it.

I appreciate and laud your effort at trying to understand the workings of the universe, and not just blindly beleing what the others teach us too. I have gone through that stage myself and concluded that Islam offered the most plausible and beleivable explanations for the things that are, and also it stays in the logical bounadries of Science (as we now know it); so I stayed a muslim.

What you are trying to understand is the thing which took Abraham and Muhammad and Buddha (Peace be Upon Them) away from humanity (to the moutains) for months at a time, where they would ponder as to why the things are, how they are, what they are. They were also intrigued by the universe and were unwilling to accept the solutions that were being offered, just like you.

It is expanding. they were saying it was gonna stop and collapse. now they were saying that it is increasing in speed of expansion) and it is not gonna stop.

i am not really sure of which scientific study u are talking about, but since i have known, verybody is talking about the universe expaiding and expanding, which is in accordance to the basic principles of physics.

Yes, but they were saying that at one point it would stop expanding (run out of energy) because then there would be no gravity, etc. Now it seems that they have changed that funda, and they are saying that the galaxies are not gonna stop.

Where/ All I can see is the Universe and everything ithat it contains. AND, since it has to have a creator and a time of creation, I am betting that the creator is God.

i guess the people who burnt women in the name of witchcraft in medival europe also bet that they were witches.

And what if they were? How can you be so sure that they were not (no offense to them).

It is in PERFECT harmony according to even the most pessimistic estimate. It even withstands us people!

where does the picture of god come in here?

He has set-up a set of rules which everything follows, just like when we make something and we give it a certain set of fundamental rules (the program must execute in this order, etc).

If somebody beleives in God, does he become a cave-man? Why dont YOU come out of your cave and accept the possibility of other thories being right?
.

someone believeing in god does nt make him a cave man, some one being ignorant and trying to believe things blindly and associating everything he cant explain to some unknown supreme power instead of trying to understand it makes some one a cave man.

Nobody beleives in God just becuz he cannot understand it. He believes in it because God has given enough signs.

And what is wrong with believing in a supreme being? is it that ridiculous? until science can prove me wrong, I will stick to God.

there is nothig wrong in believeing in a supreme being , i never said it is wrong, we are in a world where we can believe in anything we want, that infact makes us humans, having different beliefs, but being too arrogant and too stubborn about something which does nt even exist, clash over things cos they were written in the books, kill people just cos they believe in something different that what we do is the biggest tragedy.

I agree.

[marko]

Sharjeel, God is not a simple solution to the universe



it's not a solution as it doesn't actually answer any questions, it defers them

example - If you propose that we are here because God wants it, then why is god here?

If you propose that God started the universe, who started God?



Its not simple either, evolution is a much less complicated process that the 6 days of work described in Genesis, although it takes a lot longer.



As i said, religion itself is a great thing for passing down moral beliefs, culture, and trying to give life shape and meaning (opiate for the masses)



but to use religion to answer simple scientific questions is a quick way to stop people from using the brains god may or may not have given them.

[Sharjeel]

but to use religion to answer simple scientific questions is a quick way to stop people from using the brains god may or may not have given them.

That may be true for Christians 9to an extent) because in the past the Church had outlawed science.



But in a lot many religions, you will find that people get full freedom to question and analyse.



If we take the example of the Koran, then it does not contradict Science and it 'flows' with science until we reach the point before the big bang (it even mentions the big bang). This is where Science has stopped now, and when we do theorise about the event(s) before the big bang, it will not be surprising if the Koran and other holy books agree with science (and vice versa).

[marko]

but to use religion to answer simple scientific questions is a quick way to stop people from using the brains god may or may not have given them.

That may be true for Christians 9to an extent) because in the past the Church had outlawed science.

But in a lot many religions, you will find that people get full freedom to question and analyse.

If we take the example of the Koran, then it does not contradict Science and it 'flows' with science until we reach the point before the big bang (it even mentions the big bang). This is where Science has stopped now, and when we do theorise about the event(s) before the big bang, it will not be surprising if the Koran and other holy books agree with science (and vice versa).

sorry i was being very christo-centric

[Sharjeel]

sorry i was being very christo-centric

Please dont be . You had a very valid point.



But it is just old drivel now. Used to happen in the old times a lot. People getting burned at stakes, people getting mocked for calling Earth round, people geting stoned for calling others to God. It is just that older times were much more conservative and any deviation from 'the path' would be met by physical brutality. Now it is not so if the reasons are good enough).

[CtrlAltDel]

It is just that older times were much more conservative and any deviation from 'the path' would be met by physical brutality. Now it is not so if the reasons are good enough).

cud u clarify what constitutes a "good enough reason" and what doesnt and thereby justifies physical brutality?

[Sharjeel]

It is just that older times were much more conservative and any deviation from 'the path' would be met by physical brutality. Now it is not so if the reasons are good enough).

cud u clarify what constitutes a "good enough reason" and what doesnt and thereby justifies physical brutality?

Oh, I did not mena Physical brutality. Me had meant that now people who have valid reasons to pursue a particular PoV will be left alone, or they will only be questioned about their behaviour.



Off topic, but AFA what constitutes 'a good enough reason' for avoiding physical brutality, is to support America. Anything else will result in physical brutality by Uncle Sam .

[lonewolf]

That may be true for Christians 9to an extent) because in the past the Church had outlawed science.

But in a lot many religions, you will find that people get full freedom to question and analyse.

If we take the example of the Koran, then it does not contradict Science and it 'flows' with science until we reach the point before the big bang (it even mentions the big bang). This is where Science has stopped now, and when we do theorise about the event(s) before the big bang, it will not be surprising if the Koran and other holy books agree with science (and vice versa).

Sharjeel, I don't want to start a (possibly controversial) debate on religion, but what you stated is a little different from facts. First of all, what you mentioned about Christians happened in medieval Europe many centuries ago, where countries were ruled by kings and remote controlled by the Catholic Church. It was the Church at that time that was not "flowing with science" when you're talking about Galileo and other scientific reformers. Things changed gradually. Note that the Bible never mentioned anything that Galileo or others contradicted.. it was the church clergy who were highly pissed with him and others for going against the current norms which they had laid down and assumed by man. Those who questioned were either burnt at the stake, or tortured and killed in many other ways. It was a way of making people keep their mouths shut.



As I said, that was all in medieval Europe. People are no longer burnt at the stake or anything like that as far as Christians are concerned. The Quran may be flexible regarding science, but the Muslim clergy (mullas) are not. In many Islamic schools and madarassas, you'll find that they still teach that the sun revolves round the earth. Refer to one of Taslima Nasreen's articles where she writes about this. She's been issued a fatwa for speaking out (a punishment that was meted out centuries ago to Christians with similar attitudes). By the way, I got a lot of information about this from a (Muslim) Yemeni friend who is very broad-minded and religious. So I'm not reading off some anti-Islam site or some ranting by xyz on the Internet. All I want to say is if you want to make a point regarding what the Quran says, go ahead and do it. But your posts sounded like you were making comparisons between religions and I just wanted to bring to the open some facts that you needed to know.